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  1. #31
    Sorry to monopolize thread but I had to complete thought while its fresh. I was taken by ambulance to a tiny hospital in a tiny town in Oregon. I needed immediate surgery and metal fixation plates. There was only one ortho surgeon in town. He came to hospital immediately. But he did not speak english very well. I had to place myself in his hands. I knew all about the potential problems with metal plates etc.

    When I got home I showed the before and after surgery xrays to several ortho surgeons. I wanted to know if surgery was done right. All local orthos marvelled at the skill of this small town doc who didnt speak english that well.

    So, two things I know from this. You could be very screwed with displaced ankle fracture on remote solo ride. I could have probably floated in water for a while but I'm sure there would be a huge panic response. These ankle fractures are specifically mentioned as a risk on pwcoffshore thread. Risk is worse with those foot trays. The second thing is you can sometimes only tell so much from a person's accent. Back to fog tomorrow AK.

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskaMike View Post

    You are meeting some friends in Roche Harbor and trailer your ski up to Anacortes. It's fairly early on a spring day and promises to be a nice ride. You launch at Cap Sante and cruise around through {open US navigable waters where the US Constitution nonetheless means nothing}

    ....whoops, looks like there's a little of that early morning fog low on the water...no problem though, you're less than 10 miles from Roche Harbor and you can see the outline of {an island} so you continue on. Five minutes later, you can't see your hand in front of your face! The fog settled almost instantly and you got caught! What are you going to do? Mike
    Ok that was my last shot for now on SJ County. Id previously worked through all these issues but you hit my hot button!

    When the heavy fog rolls in, its time to turn on the GPS with your prior waypoints logged in. Youll go straight home if you do it right. Ive learned the hard way how far you can go wrong with visual orientation only.

    Although it goes against my natural grain, I think you would also have to slow way down. There is plenty of wood and floating debris in open water that can stop you quickly plus other boats who probably will never see you.

    I would also hit my strobes on PFD. Id have my whistle with me as required but I would not bother using it unless stopped in water. I just dont think they are loud enough while underway esp in wind and waves.


  3. #33
    Moderator shawn alladio's Avatar
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    Strobe behind your visual sighting...back strop of your PFD or behind you on the PWC..not in front of your field of vision...and you would want to occassionaly, stop the pwc and listen for sounds, such as other boater traffic/waves...blah blah....

  4. #34
    Moderator shawn alladio's Avatar
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    What AKMike is doing is very clever!

    He is making you think! And hopefully before you get into any of these situations, so you will have the tooling available to lessen the drama.

    This is a very important element in teaching, coaching, mentoring....getting the student into the 'mindset' of problem solving in this field....

    Trial and error are good ways to learn but can be risky...because you can fine tune by example of what not to do...

    However, I find that it is most fascinating first to find a personality that can give a 'good show'...as you can't teach a person anything unless they want to learn. I'm sure some people read some of our threads and feel they are boring, and sometimes they are kinda dry....LOL but, when you work in the field and are the responder, you realize how critical minutes become on the open water for someone's life.

    So, for a student, the most important thing is MINDSET.

    Creativity is very important. And try to answer your own question before you ask it so you start to develop those problem solving skills....

    AKMIKE is a great personality to learn from, he is a 'showperson' or a teacher, bluE is too, but probably wouldn't accept that..Jammer is probably our court jester or my manservant, not sure which yet..LOL j/k

    So, don't stop thinking at the level you are shown, or taught, keep evolving, as there is never one true or sole answer, just like in life it rapidly changes each second, you have to 'stay in step'.

    This is part of the decision making process. But first you have to know who you truly are, and the truth of the matter is you will reveal yourself when put under pressure or stressors.

    MINDSET folks...don't wrap your brain around this concept, expand it.

    Let's say you are in art school. The teacher goes to the board and draws a picture of a dog. Then turns to the class and says everyone is going to draw a dog now. So you already have the impression, that example. But perhaps your style, your line, your pen/brush/color are different? You will be graded, so the judge is the person who believes the dog drawing most compliments their concept...I prefer to keep this in mind, but expand upon that and go beyond it...

    I am not sure I am making sense, but you can break a mold. Sometimes you have to do that to save your life, go beyond what you ever believed you were capable of. You just have to give yourself 'permission'.

    I hope this helps...

  5. #35
    AlaskaMike's Avatar
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    #3 answers

    The fog scenario is real....it happened to me in that exact spot; however, I was on my (then brand new) 37' Bayliner heading for Whittier, Alaska. None of my crew or myself was comfortable with radar at that point, I'd just installed it a week before and hadn't done much more than watch the instructional video and glance at the owner's manual....so, here we were, in a bit of a pickle. The first thing we did is stop the boat. We assigned one person to activate the automatic fog horn (got one of those on your PWC??) and the rest of us worked on trying to decipher what the radar was telling us. After a few minutes, we got the radar range markers set and the heading indicator dialed in. We knew "about" where we were and confirmed our position with the GPS. We knew what our heading was supposed to be and used the compass for steering (if you've ever tried to 'chase' a GPS heading, you know that the signal delay will have you wandering all over the place.)

    But, this scenario is about a PWC. Those of you with even a cursory knowlege of the Navigation Rules will also know that there are several rules involved with this scenario. Here's the crux of the situation: First of all, you should have never gotten yourself into a limited vis situation with a PWC! They aren't equipped for darkness or limited vis (lack of nav lights)....but then our intrepid adventurer didn't see that coming quick enough, so he's quite lucky that both Blue and Shawn nailed the solutions! Make yourself as visible as possible, both visually and audibly! Then, (very slowly), make your way to the nearest land (lucky that you've at least practiced navigating with a GPS other than just using the top speed function!) and wait for the fog to lift! In limited visibility, you present a significant hazard to other boaters and yourself!

    OK, one more.

    This is a popular lake in Texas. The surrounding landscape is flat with a typical afternoon haze in the distance. The sun is still high in the sky and it's hot! The beaches still have a few sunbathers, but most have escaped the sun and gone into the shade. You are on your favorite stand-up ski and it's running very well today! Plus, there are at least 5 of those big 'poker-run' boats making some very good wakes to play in. Life is good!

    On the western shore, there is a small family with a new ski; it's a big 3-seat sit-down and Dad has been playing around in the shallows giving Mom & the kids rides all day. They've not wandered much past a few hundred yards from where they're set up. The 14 year old son (let's call him Billy) has been itching to get at the controls all day. Dad has been reluctant, after all, the ski is brand new and it's for the entire family! Billy has been paying close attention and finally the rest of the family is relaxing, tired from all the excitement. Dad thinks, "Well, Billy is a very responsible young man, maybe I can start working with him; he'll be riding solo soon enough anyway." So, Dad & Billy spend a little time in the shallows and Billy is working hard at gaining Dad's trust and confidence. Billy has done well, and Dad says "OK, now go out in the lake a little ways...not too far!...and give it a bit of gas" Billy says to himself, "YES! THIS IS SO AWESOME!"....so he runs the ski up to about 30 mph. The wind is tearing at his eyes and the thrill is everything he imagined it would be. Billy wants to savor the moment and keeps the ski on a straight course for the middle of the lake. Dad is waving at him and he carefully turns and heads back for the beach. Once the turn is complete, Billy nails the throttle to the stop and the ski rockets to 20..30..40..50....and Billy's vision narrows to a small tunnel with the only thing in his vision is Dad.

    You have just finished a perfect barrel-roll on your standup. The wake behind a 50 mph Donzi was just what you ordered and the people (2 guys, two gals) in the Donzi had all eyes on you...except for the skipper, who had one eye on a ski that was running fast toward the beach. Everybody cheered when you landed the roll and the skipper glanced back to see what was going on.

    You watch the collision unfold in slow motion. The ski hits the Donzi on the starboard side, almost perfectly amidships. Billy is catapulted over the Donzi and the ski punches a hole in the Donzi. Suddenly, there are 5 people in the water, at least two who have no PFD's on and Billy, who appears unconsious and face down.

    Here's the questions: Who was most likely to NOT be wearing the PFD's and why? Why is Billy face down and is there an appropriate PFD for jetski use that will turn an unconsious person face up? What could have been done to prevent the accident? Mike

  6. #36
    Here is my analysis AK Mike.

    Ski owners must be aware of legal doctrine of negligent entrustment. Allowing an inexperienced rider to use ski w/o adequate instruction or supervision is a potential legal liability.

    #1 risk on PWCs is collisions with other PWCs or boats. Statistical incidence of PWC operator/passenger drownings is significantly less than with regular boats, however, because PWCrs have high rate of PFD compliance.

    Many standard PFDs worn by PWCrs will not reliably roll unconscious person's face out of the water. The most reliable PFDs that will can be bulky and may restrict movement. Consequently, you have to pick a PFD that has a good chance of rolling you over w/o all the bulk. I picked a Mustang with a high collar but there are many to choose from. I guess in a remote solo situation you might want to deal with more bulk to get more reliable roll over.

    Id go over to the person face down in the water first because thats an obvious risk of immediate drowning.

    I think its time for me to take a CPR refresher course. Techniques are not that difficult but you have to know exactly what you are doing.

    Shawn, I'm starting to better understand what you mean by mindset. Ive been very focused the last 3 years on planning for mechanical failures but those are just part of the picture. I think the discussions here have been great with plenty of fun along the way. Watch out for the jester though because since medieval times they have often been the smartest person in the room!
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  7. #37
    Moderator shawn alladio's Avatar
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    Watch out for the jester though because since medieval times they have often been the smartest person in the room![/quote]


    Naw, Jammer is busy now building a race boat!
    HAHAHA

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by shawn alladio View Post
    Watch out for the jester though because since medieval times they have often been the smartest person in the room!

    Naw, Jammer is busy now building a race boat!
    HAHAHA[/quote]Rule #1 always make time for people you like. .......Jammer 1 missed ya! but destiny and the puzzel comes first.........
    Last edited by Jammer 1; 02-03-2008 at 02:53 PM.

  9. #39
    Moderator shawn alladio's Avatar
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    Cal Coast here I come!
    My 4 skis are ready for pickup...so I'm off for a drive......gonna be a long day......ugh.
    Will be nice to see the coast today. Time to get gear ready for class..

  10. #40
    AlaskaMike's Avatar
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    Blue nailed it!

    The questions at the end of this scenario probably aren't the ones you might have asked, but I wanted to make a couple of critical points. The persons involved in this accident who were most likely not wearing PFD's are the guys in the Donzi. Second most likely are the gals and Billy likely had a PFD on; PFD wear rate studies confirm that our boating culture does not encourage the wearing of PFD's; in fact, because you most likely had to wear a PFD when you were younger and when you became of age (13 in most states), you were then officially "grown up" and wearing a PFD is just something most adults don't do....the safety industry is trying to change that mindset, but you only have to watch a TV show or look at a boating magazine to recognize that adults typically do not wear PFD's and kids do....interestingly enough, wear rate surveys show that PWC riders and kayakers have the highest wear rates of all! What do you suppose we know that a normal boater does not? The second question is a trick question...to my knowledge, there are no commercially available Type I PFD's that are speed/impact rated. Personally, I would buy a speed/impact rated Type I in a heartbeat as long as it wasn't bulky and allowed me the freedom of movement (listen up PFD manufacturers!).

    Blue is right, Billy is in trouble and can easily drown. Good move!

    Stand by, more to come! Mike

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