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  1. #41
    Click avatar for tech links/info K447's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky_Road View Post
    ...and judging from my MSX 150, damn near bullet proof! ...
    In general, would folks say these MSX110 and MSX 150 Bosch machines are going to continue to be reilable as they age?

    I have read about the SeaDoo superchargers needing bearing servicing or repair after not that many operating hours, and wonder if there are any potential big issues with these 4 stroke Polaris machines.

    Are there things that worry people, reliability or maintenance-wise, about the Bosch type engines?

    I understand that the Fitch engines are a whole different animal from the Bosch, but it is not clear to me whether the common problems the Fitch have are becoming well enough understood to be managable.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by K447 View Post
    In general, would folks say these MSX110 and MSX 150 Bosch machines are going to continue to be reilable as they age?

    I have read about the SeaDoo superchargers needing bearing servicing or repair after not that many operating hours, and wonder if there are any potential big issues with these 4 stroke Polaris machines.

    Are there things that worry people, reliability or maintenance-wise, about the Bosch type engines?

    I understand that the Fitch engines are a whole different animal from the Bosch, but it is not clear to me whether the common problems the Fitch have are becoming well enough understood to be managable.
    The engine in the MSX 150 is the MPE 750 made by Weber of Germany, and can be found in all sorts of sports vehicles, and even in some cars.
    http://www.weber-automotive.com/en/d...-ag/index.html

    I believe that Polaris still offers this engine in some of their ATV models (correct me, guys, if I have this wrong), and that would explain why my local Polaris dealer tells me that parts should not be a problem for quite a while. It is a complex design (and not for the faint of heart do-it-yourself home mechanic), but it is like most German exports very fine toleranced and strong. Bosch components are found in virtually every motorized vehicle on the road today, and pretty much 'wrote' the book...the ECU in the MSX 150 is actually the same part number found in at least one car (car model escapes me...but was mentioned in an earlier thread on this forum). The closed loop cooling system in the MSX 150 uses 50/50 water and antifreeze...and the fact that your engine internals are never exposed to whatever water you are riding in (salt water in my area) was a big factor in my purchase decision. And the use of synthetic oil in the dry sump oiling system tells me that the engine will never want for superior oiling...and I love the ability to just pull up to the gas pump, and well, just pump!

    I have had only one issue with my turbo. The overboost sensor (at 85 hours) would reduce the engine RPMs to a safe 4600, and activate the 'check engine' light. The service manual (posted in the tech section of this site) suggested to check the wastegate door for free operation...and it was correct. My gate door was 'stuck' in the full boost position, and I was able to oil the shaft, and work the door free. My ski reaches 7500 rpms again...and passes the 60 mph point on a smooth day.

    Someone once told me that 4 stroke skis were becoming the future...thanks to the environmental whackos, and economics. I believe that Polaris was in position, with the MSX 150, to set the standard....

  3. #43
    Click avatar for tech links/info K447's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky_Road View Post
    The engine in the MSX 150 is the MPE 750 made by Weber of Germany, and can be found in all sorts of sports vehicles, and even in some cars.
    http://www.weber-automotive.com/en/d...-ag/index.html

    I believe that Polaris still offers this engine in some of their ATV models (correct me, guys, if I have this wrong), and that would explain why my local Polaris dealer tells me that parts should not be a problem for quite a while. It is a complex design (and not for the faint of heart do-it-yourself home mechanic), but it is like most German exports very fine toleranced and strong. Bosch components are found in virtually every motorized vehicle on the road today, and pretty much 'wrote' the book...the ECU in the MSX 150 is actually the same part number found in at least one car (car model escapes me...but was mentioned in an earlier thread on this forum). The closed loop cooling system in the MSX 150 uses 50/50 water and antifreeze...and the fact that your engine internals are never exposed to whatever water you are riding in (salt water in my area) was a big factor in my purchase decision. And the use of synthetic oil in the dry sump oiling system tells me that the engine will never want for superior oiling...and I love the ability to just pull up to the gas pump, and well, just pump!

    I have had only one issue with my turbo. The overboost sensor (at 85 hours) would reduce the engine RPMs to a safe 4600, and activate the 'check engine' light. The service manual (posted in the tech section of this site) suggested to check the wastegate door for free operation...and it was correct. My gate door was 'stuck' in the full boost position, and I was able to oil the shaft, and work the door free. My ski reaches 7500 rpms again...and passes the 60 mph point on a smooth day.

    Someone once told me that 4 stroke skis were becoming the future...thanks to the environmental whackos, and economics. I believe that Polaris was in position, with the MSX 150, to set the standard....
    Thanks for the info.
    Certainly the Weber engine sounds good.
    Is there much field data regarding actual reliability in MSX service (other than the sticking wastegate)?

    Regarding maintenance over time, is it realistic to think one can keep his Weber/Bosch powered machine running well by himself, or is dealer servicing really the more realistic plan?

    If you had to choose between a Polaris Fitch 2-stroke vs. a Weber/Bosch 4-stroke, which would be the more intelligent choice?
    I am thinking maintenance, longevity, servcing costs and hassles, vs. purchase cost and depreciation (although they all seem to depreciate rather quickly).
    Maybe a poll would be helpful...

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by K447 View Post
    Thanks for the info.
    Certainly the Weber engine sounds good.
    Is there much field data regarding actual reliability in MSX service (other than the sticking wastegate)?

    Regarding maintenance over time, is it realistic to think one can keep his Weber/Bosch powered machine running well by himself, or is dealer servicing really the more realistic plan?

    If you had to choose between a Polaris Fitch 2-stroke vs. a Weber/Bosch 4-stroke, which would be the more intelligent choice?
    I am thinking maintenance, longevity, servcing costs and hassles, vs. purchase cost and depreciation (although they all seem to depreciate rather quickly).
    Maybe a poll would be helpful...
    Inasmuch as 95% of the 'regulars' in this forum 'live and breath' 2 stroke...my money is placed on the Fitch winning that poll!!!

    As for maintenance for my 4 stroke, I do most of it myself. Actually, that isn't such a great accomplishment, since a 4 stroke doesn't need much to keep running on a regular basis (kinda like your car...can you imagine having to adjust your car's jets, and pulling the heads to guage 'piston wash' every other day?) The owners manual says to change the coolant after 4 years...but mine looks the same pretty pink as Day 1, so I will leave well enough alone. My manual also says to change the oil every 25 hrs...but I am a long time believer in synthetic oil, and know that one of the advantages of synthetic, is that it can be used for extended intervals (Yamaha tells their 4 stroke owners to change every 100 hrs...that makes more sense to me!) Since the WaveRunner doesn't have a turbo, I will be changing mine every 50 hrs. Mobil 1 sells the exact synthetic blend called for (15w-50W), and you can get it at WalMart for a fraction of the dealer's price, and the oil filter is sold on eBay for the Polaris ATV (same part number as my ski). The actual changing of the oil is burdensome if you follow the steps in the owners manual...I have found that if you simply disconnect the oil return line to the tank (one step in the manual), remove the plugs (2), spin the engine, and the old oil can be routed into an empty 2 liter bottle. Takes several spins, but works just fine.

    Other than keeping the battery topped, and the body shined, I am done!

  5. #45
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    Oh, yeah....

    My dealer tells me that there is a government mandate that tells manufacturers that they have to provide parts for discontinued models for 7 years. If that is true, new parts for the MSX models will be around longer than any other Polaris model....

    Just a thought!

  6. #46
    Click avatar for tech links/info K447's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky_Road View Post
    ...The actual changing of the oil is burdensome if you follow the steps in the owners manual...I have found that if you simply disconnect the oil return line to the tank (one step in the manual), remove the plugs (2), spin the engine, and the old oil can be routed into an empty 2 liter bottle. Takes several spins, but works just fine...
    How long in total are you cranking the motor over to pump all the oil out?
    And then you refill, and crank it again to pump the new oil around?
    Any concern about cranking with no oil going to the bearings?

    I would imagine that the turbocharger itself is the hardest on the oil, due to the temperatures in there. Even with a water jacket, turbos have high internal temps. I don't know how much that would affect synthetic oil life.

    I would expect the turbo-charging pressure to result in more combustion blow-by into the crankcase, so oil contamination may have been behind the frequent oil change recommendation, especially since the total amount of oil in there is not huge.


  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by K447 View Post
    How long in total are you cranking the motor over to pump all the oil out?
    And then you refill, and crank it again to pump the new oil around?
    Any concern about cranking with no oil going to the bearings?

    I would imagine that the turbocharger itself is the hardest on the oil, due to the temperatures in there. Even with a water jacket, turbos have high internal temps. I don't know how much that would affect synthetic oil life.

    I would expect the turbo-charging pressure to result in more combustion blow-by into the crankcase, so oil contamination may have been behind the frequent oil change recommendation, especially since the total amount of oil in there is not huge.
    Keep in mind that the engine is simply turning...plugs pulled, and no resistance. About three 10 second spins, and you are done. The manual says to extract whatever oil is in the external oil tank (tough to do), then remove the return hose and spin the motor. I 'lived' in synthetic oil during my flying days in the service, and learned that synthetic oil was developed mainly for the high temperatures of jet engines, and would be almost impossible to break down by the relatively lower temperatures generated by consumer turbos. Also...synthetic oil has the unique ability to 'cling' to metal (and stay there), so there is no such thing as a 'dry' start...hence merely turning a ski engine would never result in any damage. As for contamination, syn oil holds pollutions in suspension, so I have always changed the oil filter at the 25 hr points.

    Oh yeah...a refill after an oil change is 3.75 quarts. Almost as much as some smaller cars!

  8. #48
    Hell Bent or Heaven Sent? Bent's Avatar
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    spinning an engine without starting (to a reasonable degree) it to rid the oil will not harm it nor the turbo.
    The turbo won't be seeing any exhaust temperatures, or any relevant speeds - so turbine failures should result.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bent View Post
    spinning an engine without starting (to a reasonable degree) it to rid the oil will not harm it nor the turbo.
    The turbo won't be seeing any exhaust temperatures, or any relevant speeds - so turbine failures should result.
    Thanks for the input, Bent! If you have any experience with the MSX 150, share it with us. I couldn't be any happier with mine...but I know that not everyone has been as 'thrilled' as I have been, and would like to get your opinions!

  10. #50
    Click avatar for tech links/info K447's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky_Road View Post
    ...As for contamination, syn oil holds pollutions in suspension, so I have always changed the oil filter at the 25 hr points.
    Oh yeah...a refill after an oil change is 3.75 quarts. Almost as much as some smaller cars!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky_Road View Post
    ...My manual also says to change the oil every 25 hrs...but I am a long time believer in synthetic oil, and know that one of the advantages of synthetic, is that it can be used for extended intervals (Yamaha tells their 4 stroke owners to change every 100 hrs...that makes more sense to me!) Since the WaveRunner doesn't have a turbo, I will be changing mine every 50 hrs. Mobil 1 sells the exact synthetic blend called for (15w-50W), and you can get it at WalMart for a fraction of the dealer's price, and the oil filter is sold on eBay for the Polaris ATV (same part number as my ski). The actual changing of the oil is burdensome if you follow the steps in the owners manual...I have found that if you simply disconnect the oil return line to the tank (one step in the manual), remove the plugs (2), spin the engine, and the old oil can be routed into an empty 2 liter bottle. Takes several spins, but works just fine...
    So when you are changing the oil, are you pumping all the oil out, or only 2 liters?

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