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  1. #1
    Rustymuscle's Avatar
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    Yamaha Joins Kawasaki Effort To Develop Hydrogen Engines



    In what appears to be an ever-increasing pace, engine manufacturers around the world are pursuing a range of strategies to produce low and zero carbon solutions to meet tightening emission standards.

    More at WatercraftJournal.Com
    Last edited by Rustymuscle; 01-20-2022 at 09:36 AM.


  2. #2
    This is how I run a jetski shop in the desert nmpeter's Avatar
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    it appears that they believe this is an alternative to battery and actually allows existing engines to be used with some minor mods. The issues as with other attempts at hydrogen products will be the filling stations and home hydrogen generators, which ain't cheap

  3. #3
    Rustymuscle's Avatar
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    Infrastructure will be the largest hurdle for either hydrogen or electric. Thankfully, the current grid can support hydrogen far easier than electric (in its current form).

  4. #4
    This is how I run a jetski shop in the desert nmpeter's Avatar
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    an affordable home based hydrogen generator that can fill ten pound bottle that simply "plug in" to the "fuel" system on these new products would certainly work, but at the expenses would be very high compared to gasoline powered engines

    yet gm, among others is moving ahead on this technology

    i expect a breakthru in cold fusion will obsolete all of this within 20 years and gives us a "back to the future type power source"...assuming the big producers allow such innovations to reach the consumer market

    https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...ec-generators/

  5. #5
    Click avatar for tech links/info K447's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmpeter View Post
    an affordable home based hydrogen generator that can fill ten pound bottle …

    … gm, among others is moving ahead on this technology
    The linked GM article is talking about a fuel cell unit that consumes hydrogen to produce electricity.

    Producing hydrogen to bottle and then transport elsewhere is a completely different thing.

    I know you know that, but I often see confusion between producing hydrogen and consuming it. Hydrogen is an expensive thing to transport. Hydrogen can also be carbon expensive to produce, depending on the inputs being used.

  6. #6
    sdlvx's Avatar
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    Electric is a dumb meme, no one wants to sit around for hours to recharge. At least hydrogen offers the possibility of refilling a tank and going on your way. I'd imagine it'd work a lot like propane tanks on your grill, when you're empty, remove the tank, go have it filled, then hook it back up.

    Having dock power is a thing a lot of people don't have. If I wanted to put my jet ski on a shore station and leave it at the dock, I wouldn't have electric to charge it, at all. Except for big yachts, most people just have 120v running to their dock, if they have electric at all. The infrastructure for electric cars already sucks but it's way worse for boats.

    It sounds like a lot of internal combustion engines can be changed to use hydrogen with similar modifications you'd make to get one to run on alcohol. But the problem is storing the hydrogen to power the vehicle.

    I feel like with the higher compression ratios, octane, and how much more explosive it is, you could get a hydrogen engine to make a whole lot of power, like 750cc hydrogen outperforming much larger two and four stroke engines.

  7. #7
    Click avatar for tech links/info K447's Avatar
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    Hydrogen storage and transport is non-trivial. To fit into reasonable size containers the gas has to be transported at very high pressures (or at extremely cold temperatures). Hydrogen is also very adept at leaking, since it is the smallest molecule.

    Quote Originally Posted by Climate Change Trust
    Compressed hydrogen is a storage form where hydrogen gas is kept under pressures to increase the storage density. Compressed hydrogen in hydrogen tanks at 350 bar (5,000 psi) and 700 bar (10,000 psi) is used for hydrogen tank systems in vehicles, based on type IV carbon-composite technology. ...

    Hydrogen gas has good energy density by weight, but poor energy density by volume versus hydrocarbons, hence it requires a larger tank to store. A large hydrogen tank will be heavier than the small hydrocarbon tank used to store the same amount of energy, all other factors remaining equal. Increasing gas pressure would improve the energy density by volume, making for smaller, but not lighter container tanks. …
    http://www.change-climate.com/Renewa..._Solutions.htm

    Click image for larger version. 

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    It is unclear whether portable hydrogen high pressure canisters could be, on a large and cost-effective scale, be safely and repeatedly removed, transported, handled and reconnected by non-specialized, untrained personnel. Quite different from refilling a portable propane tank.

    Quote Originally Posted by Compressed Hydrogen Storage vs. Liquid Hydrogen Storage
    Cryo-compressed hydrogen storage (CcH2) and liquid hydrogen (LH2) storage are alternative mature approaches where hydrogen is liquidized at −253°C and compressed into vessels that can be pressurized to 250–350 atm. Accordingly, the size of liquid hydrogen requires larger tanks reaching to about 3 times larger than the current used gasoline tank.[41] Moreover, liquid hydrogen requires well-insulated and expensive cryogenic storage vessels to prevent boil-off and maximize dormancy and to maintain the temperature below to 20 K.[42]

    Unluckily, the gas-liquid transformation process is extremely expensive, consuming approximately ∼25%–30% of the energy content of the stored hydrogen.[43] Thus, employing these traditional storage approaches in real future applications may be difficult due to the high cost and safety issues.[44]
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics...drogen-storage

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    The primary reason there is interest in combustion engines fueled by hydrogen is that the fuel cell method, generating electricity directly from the hydrogen, requires somewhat bulky and expensive on-board equipment. In addition to what tank storage is required for the hydrogen.

    Hydrogen storage tank types;
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_tank

    Have a look ‘under the hood’ of the Toyota Murai for a glimpse of the complexity involved in a fuel cell vehicle.


  8. #8
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    Hyundai has experienced success with their hydrogen fueled suv, its downfall is lack of hydrogen fueling stations and infrastructure.

  9. #9
    Click avatar for tech links/info K447's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moparguy View Post
    Hyundai … hydrogen fueled suv, its downfall is lack of hydrogen fueling stations and infrastructure.
    … Hyundai also announced its plan to popularise hydrogen by 2040
    Before NEXO, Hyundai had been investing in hydrogen fuel cell technology for more than two decades
    By 2028, it plans to become the first automotive manufacturer to electrify all its commercial vehicle models – either with a fuel cell system or a battery-electric powertrain.
    Two years later, it intends to make FCEVs available at a price point comparable to BEVs.
    https://www.hyundai.news/eu/articles...000-units.html

    Hydrogen personal motor vehicle development has basically run out of time. Selling 1,000 H2 vehicles here, a few hundred more units there, is insufficient quantity.

    Battery Electric Vehicles are already being manufactured in volume, and production capacity is rapidly scaling upwards. Tesla alone will go from two vehicle production factories (California and China) last year to four this year (Texas and Germany). Plus their ever expanding battery manufacturing volume.

    Tesla is selling every car they can make, despite raising prices and ongoing wait lists. And making money on each car sold.

    EV fast charging stations are also becoming available in more and more locations, and with faster charge rates. Not just Tesla SuperCharger stations, a number of other suppliers are also installing DC fast chargers and destination chargers in quantity.

    For people who can charge their BEV at home, the up front cost for the Level 2 home charger and required wiring is not much more than that of an electric stove. There is no modest cost equivalent for make-it-at-home hydrogen vehicle filling.

    However soon the tipping point may happen for EV vs. internal combustion sales, the fuel cell guys are still years away. By 2030 BEV infrastructure will be widespread and probably even more cost effective.

    Hydrogen vehicles, if they ever have any market success, seemingly that may be in specific markets, perhaps long haul trucking on repetitive routes. And even then, I have my doubts.

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