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  1. #51
    Click avatar for tech links/info K447's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 785 lugs View Post
    ...
    We have many ski's ... from the 1990's that have nothing ever done to them with 100's of hrs ...
    And many more that did not.

    Reliability is a statistical thing. And a perception thing. The proportion of 2-strokes that needed significant repairs within the first handful of years of ownership, and percentage of the units for which the repair cost exceeded value and the machine was permanently parked or scrapped for parts. Lots of potential buyers that owned 2-stroke machines back in the day have probably vowed to never do that again.

    For any new 2-stroke watercraft introduced to the market now the comparison will be to the (perceived) reliability of the current generation 4-stroke watercraft. It is unclear to me how a newcomer with a 2-stroke product would overcome that negative bias, at scale.
    Last edited by K447; 09-20-2020 at 08:06 PM.

  2. #52
    Click avatar for tech links/info K447's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mentzel View Post
    ... yamaha ... 2-strokes in sleds this season...
    Do they meet the most strict current emissions restrictions?

    https://www.nps.gov/yell/planyourvisit/newbatlist.htm


    Emissions restrictions was one factor in the discontinuation of 2-stroke PWC.

    Polaris was ahead of the game on that with their Ficht Low Emissions designation, but the overall effect of the old-school smokey carburetor 2-strokes painted all of them with a negative perception.

    And the exhaust sound. Seadoo had their D-Sea-Bel, Polaris with PLANET. They made the 2-strokes ‘less annoying’ and less noisy but nowhere near ‘not loud’. Noisy 2-strokes is another memory burden that new buyers would have to overcome.

    The current factory 4-strokes are often quiet enough while cruising that they are barely noticeable as they go by along the other side of the lake.

    To this day the memories of wailing 2-stroke watercraft from decades ago inflames emotions among waterfront property owners and boaters.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by K447 View Post
    Do they meet the most strict current emissions restrictions?

    https://www.nps.gov/yell/planyourvisit/newbatlist.htm


    Emissions restrictions was one factor in the discontinuation of 2-stroke PWC.

    Polaris was ahead of the game on that with their Ficht Low Emissions designation, but the overall effect of the old-school smokey carburetor 2-strokes painted all of them with a negative perception.

    And the exhaust sound. Seadoo had their D-Sea-Bel, Polaris with PLANET. They made the 2-strokes ‘less annoying’ and less noisy but nowhere near ‘not loud’. Noisy 2-strokes is another memory burden that new buyers would have to overcome.

    The current factory 4-strokes are often quiet enough while cruising that they are barely noticeable as they go by along the other side of the lake.

    To this day the memories of wailing 2-stroke watercraft from decades ago inflames emotions among waterfront property owners and boaters.
    This is probably a big reason why that guy from Polaris said it depends on who wins the next election. I could easy see Trump rolling back some of those restrictions to get an American company back in a new market it left because of lawsuits and foreign competition. Polaris could have 4 years to get their platform up and running with two strokes and hopefully get a good 4 stroke platform for 2024 in case a tree hugger gets into office.

    Polaris doesn't need to be high performance to make money in the PWC industry. Adapt the 800 H.O. Cleanfire or 850 for watercraft, maybe add fuel injection, design a new deck that looks more modern for the Virage hull, and sell it for $7,500. That would blow a high end Spark out of the water and you'd get a real hull and jet ski instead of some plastic toy. Something like that would be everywhere, "the Polaris is fast and a very good value but you have to add oil". A lot of people would go for that. Not everyone cares about the noise or smoke.

    Some people like it.

  4. #54
    MSX 150 guy lives on Mr. GP1800's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post
    This is probably a big reason why that guy from Polaris said it depends on who wins the next election. I could easy see Trump rolling back some of those restrictions to get an American company back in a new market it left because of lawsuits and foreign competition. Polaris could have 4 years to get their platform up and running with two strokes and hopefully get a good 4 stroke platform for 2024 in case a tree hugger gets into office.

    Polaris doesn't need to be high performance to make money in the PWC industry. Adapt the 800 H.O. Cleanfire or 850 for watercraft, maybe add fuel injection, design a new deck that looks more modern for the Virage hull, and sell it for $7,500. That would blow a high end Spark out of the water and you'd get a real hull and jet ski instead of some plastic toy. Something like that would be everywhere, "the Polaris is fast and a very good value but you have to add oil". A lot of people would go for that. Not everyone cares about the noise or smoke.

    Some people like it.
    Sea doo could have easily adapted an etec motor for pwc use. They didn’t. There’s a reason for that I’m sure. Although I think a 150 hp etec motor in a spark or gti would have been a great combo.


  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. GP1800 View Post
    Probably 29 if it hasn’t blown up yet
    I’m not sure since I would need to connect to old BUDS system to find out.. But it has a lot of hours since I bought it new in 2002. Also appropriate for this thread is I have always used Polaris VES gold oil in it. No kidding! Since I ride Polaris sleds I just used the same oil. The XPS always looked like it had dirt in the bottom of empty oil can. I would like to get hours off of MPEM. Its alot!

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. GP1800 View Post
    Sea doo could have easily adapted an etec motor for pwc use. They didn’t. There’s a reason for that I’m sure. Although I think a 150 hp etec motor in a spark or gti would have been a great combo.
    Sea Doo always comes across as a more family friendly and luxury brand to me. I can see why they didn't, they're always adding luxury features and there's nothing luxurious about a two stroke.

    Polaris never really had much of a choice because they relied on Weber, but they do have Pro Star 4 strokes now.
    https://rzr.polaris.com/en-us/prostar/
    https://blog.woodscyclecountry.com/p...ostar-engines/

    Actually, look at this:
    https://www.autoblog.com/2020/01/15/...shot-revealed/

    Polaris has a brand new, 2000cc four stroke, 203hp. I don't think it has a supercharger or anything. Kind of interesting Polaris would develop a brand new engine just for the Slingshot. Actually, Slingshot sales are declining and they are trying to revive the brand. https://www.startribune.com/with-sal...hot/567845972/

    The Slingshot is estimated to represent less than 3% of Polaris’ $6.8 billion in sales.
    But why would Polaris spend the money to develop a new engine (it is based on the ProStar 1000 it seems) like this for one product that has declining sales? I think they are planning on shoving this 2000cc engine into a PWC hull.

    It doesn't look that much larger than the 4 cylinder 4 strokes in other PWC.
    https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/pictur...irst-drive/60/

    I had no idea they even had these engines. I knew they had 4 strokes in the RZRs but they were never enough to drive a large PWC. I guess they don't really have to rely on a two stroke to make a flagship PWC. I don't know how much HP you get out of a decent supercharger or turbo, but I think there's enough base there to make a serious contender. As much as I would like to see them come back, Polaris could make the ProStar engines work.

  7. #57
    Click avatar for tech links/info K447's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post
    ... how much HP you get out of a decent supercharger ...
    Yamaha gets another 50% with SVHO supercharger (~180 to ~270), Seadoo gets almost 100% more power with supercharger (155 ish to 300 ish).

    Which is part of the reason it is fairly easy to get more power from the Yamaha SVHO, the stock engine just has a lot of potential.

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Mentzel View Post
    I’ll race any EX, EXR or Spark on my 2002 seadoo XP, which is 130hp stock. You can now get one for ~$1500. Its goes 62mph gps. Why would anyone drop $9k on a new and 10 mph slower ski. More complicated, more expensive AND slower?
    I understand your point but the 951 is an exploding turd...

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  10. #59
    Click avatar for tech links/info K447's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mentzel View Post
    ... I would need to connect to old BUDS system to find out..

    But it has a lot of hours .... I would like to get hours off of MPEM. Its a lot!
    Let us know when you find out.

  11. #60
    Click avatar for tech links/info K447's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post
    Sea Doo always comes across as a ... luxury brand to me. ... there's nothing luxurious about a two stroke. ...
    Seadoo makes and sells a lot of Spark models. They are not luxurious. They are inexpensive, basic watercraft.

    The only ‘fancy’ option is iBR, which I suspect many buyers view as a safety feature.

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