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  1. #111
    sdlvx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. GP1800 View Post
    All true. But none of those machines can compare to the performance and ride quality of the new ski. As well as ease of maintenance fuel range and reliability. Not to mention the ride system on Yamaha is slick as shit. I wouldn’t give that up for anything. The handling and performance is better than anything I’ve ever ridden
    Some of us like a violent, rough, aggressive powercurve, and wet machine. The Spark is the closest you can get to a two stroke sit down today. People always assume it's because of the price, but it could also be because it's a small hull that still provides a wet ride and it's light and nimble like a smaller two stroke.

    There are people that would have more fun on something like an SL 750 than a big 4 stroke ski. I know you're not one of them, but they are completely different skis providing a different experience. The SL experience is something you're not getting out of a new ski, even a Spark or EX.

    You love ride, I've never had a ski with reverse and even when I am riding one with manual reverse (I have used RIDE too) you can live without it easily. At least I can, but I've never had reverse and it's never bothered me.


  2. #112
    Click avatar for tech links/info K447's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post
    Some of us like a violent, rough, aggressive powercurve ... The Spark ...
    is not those things.

    Even when tuned to ‘110hp’

  3. #113

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    This whole discussion is silly to me because I have an innate ability to immediately tell if a machine is something I want to be on. I've loved models of all brands and engine formats. I don't judge by reliability because I break anything I ride. Polaris won't come back because Sea-Doo has too big of a jump on them by the way of features and hull design.

    That being said, what got me off my Pro1200 was when I started riding a 4 stroke in the ocean. There is no way a 2 stroke made for the general consumer can deliver the power, emissions, and durability that a 4 stroke can.

  4. #114
    Click avatar for tech links/info K447's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post
    ... I've never had a ski with reverse and even when I am riding one with manual reverse (I have used RIDE too) you can live without it easily. At least I can, but I've never had reverse and it's never bothered me.
    I have ridden many watercraft without reverse, and I can handle them around docks and tight maneuvering spaces. Rarely used reverse on my own machines, even when docking. Just too crude an input.

    Which meant there were times where I would not attempt to fit into a tight space as I just did not have enough room for overshoot error.

    For me, RiDE is mostly about the precise control and easy, quick transitions from neutral into forward or reverse. I can be directly facing a dock, just 2 feet away, and nudge the hull forward and turn it slowly to get alongside, without any lurching or concern about ramming the dock or other nearby boats/PWC. Momentary forward or reverse thrust nudges combined with consistent steering direction * make it easy to do whatever is needed.

    That precise control is also useful when pausing in open water next to other PWC. We can maintain fairly close hull spacing without drifting away or into each other. Since the engine noise is minimal we can talk in normal voices.

    When I rode 2-stroke Polaris with reverse (and ‘neutral’), there was no where near the same degree of control. And the engine racket meant we often had to stop the motors to hear each other.

    The actual reversing function, such as backing off a trailer or whatever, works just fine but is not the core benefit of RiDE.


    * I will mention this, as people who have not ridden a modern Yamaha with RiDE may not realize the steering is different. With RiDE, the bow turns in the direction the handlebars are turned. Always. Turn the handlebars to the right and the bow turns right. And it does so while in forward, neutral, and reverse.

    This makes it much easier to control in tight spaces. For example; Reverse off the trailer between two docks, then turn the handlebars to the right. The bow swings right while reversing. Select Neutral and continue to hold the handlebars right, the bow continues to swing right while the hull slows and then pivots in place. Continue holding the handlebars right and nudge forward, the hull continues turning right and begins moving forward. Straighten the steering and proceed away.

    The ‘classic’ reverse bucket system causes the steering effect to alternate. Turn right while going forward, then engage reverse and many PWC will then rotate the hull in the opposite direction of the handlebar. You can often see this in action - the rider slams the handlebars left and right as they alternate between forward and reverse modes, trying to get the hull turned around in a tight area.

  5. #115
    sdlvx's Avatar
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    Keith I really like you and appreciate all you do for the forums, but a lot of us Polaris guys like Polaris because they always did things different. They didn't put stereos on their skis or come up with clever reverse systems or add these learning mode things (unless they were pressured into it).

    They did things like put 750s in a ski when everyone was still using 500s and maybe 650s in their "race" versions. They made the Pro 785 and it was so ridiculous they had to basically cancel the stock 800 class because there was zero competition, and I believe the pro 785 forced everyone else to make 1100s and 1200s. Matrix was going to be a violent, hard hitting fast two stroke in a world of four strokes. It wouldn't be the fastest, but it would still be a hard hitting, violent powerband two stroke ski that a lot of people really enjoy, myself included. They were the first with a four seater too.

    They were never about those fancy features, they innovated in other ways. Things like RIDE, stereos, etc are really popular with a lot of people. Some of us don't care about that stuff. And Polaris did an awesome job of really hitting that niche. I don't think if Polaris came back that they would directly compete with all these fancy bells and whistles you get on the newer skis. And I don't think they'd really be appealing to the market that wants that stuff. Which is kind of why I'm excited about the idea of them coming back. They wouldn't release just an attempt to match and catch up with Doo and Yam, they'd try something pretty different.

    The one thing I didn't notice about all of this is how invested Polaris has become into boats with Boat Holdings. They are making sport boats, pontoons, etc. They have a lot of resources there, though they're supposedly closing down Rinker, Striper, and Lawson. It kind of makes sense for them to make some marine four stroke engines if they have all those boats. Right now they're mostly depending on outboards. Rinker has stern drives but it looks like Polaris is going to discontinue it.

  6. #116
    Click avatar for tech links/info K447's Avatar
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    I will disagree that RiDE (or Seadoo iBR) is something to be dismissed as fancy or some sort of ‘bells and whistles’ unnecessary feature.

    RiDE provides much better operator control of the PWC. Not only in tight areas, around docks and during trailer loading/unloading. Riders of all experience levels, but especially those who are of moderate skill, have much more control while on the water and are less likely to inadvertently run into or over something or someone.

    The braking function really can reduce the severity of a collision at speed or avoid it entirely.

    The presence of the left handlebar control lever gives the rider something to do when things are suddenly not going well. A skilled rider may be able to handle the problem using just steering and engine power, but even they can find the additional control options to be useful.

    Surely some will complain that having better control is a crutch and all riders should learn to ride without these capabilities. Those who prefer to not touch the left handlebar lever are welcome to do so. I do not agree that having additional control over what a PWC is doing is a bad thing.

    These are real safety improvements. From a safety perspective alone this sort of thing should be ‘standard’. PWC without it are inherently not as good.

    I sometimes tour with a few riders who are sanctioned racers on bouy courses. They bought the non-iBR version of the Spark (because ‘racing’). The Spark is the back up for his primary 2-stroke race machine. The rest of us in the tour group have full RiDE control when idling while the Sparks need to shut off the engine every single time we pause to discuss something. And then they drift away, or drift towards another ski, or bump into, or whatever. Start engine, turn around or reposition, stop engine. Drift in another direction, and so on...

    Even Learner Mode, which may seem superfluous to an experienced rider, has value. I recently loaned my GP1800 to a family member who had ridden only a few times prior, and always with a supervisor as passenger. They (and I) were more comfortable with Learner Mode engaged. They got to ride around the lake at a decent rate of speed without the aggressive acceleration response that normally occurs with 300hp under the index finger. They could experiment in open water with braking from speed, rotating in place, reversing with steering, and so on.

    A while later she idled up to near the dock and hovered a few feet away in neutral, to ask me some questions about what we were going to do later in the day. She had quickly become familiar enough with RiDE that putting the machine exactly where she wanted it to be was ‘easy’. She decided to dock, and her moving it sideways to park dockside was no big deal.

    On a traditional PWC that same moment would have involved a lot more messing about (no neutral) and the potential of unwanted drifting (it was a windy day) or dock contact.

    My experience with beginners on a RIDE equipped Yamaha is that they require a minute of instruction (if that) and the new rider quickly figures out how RiDE works and how to control the machine.

  7. #117
    There is a lot here that's been said which I agree with and don't agree with but to answer the original question, sorry but there's absolutely no way Polaris will ever get back into the PWC industry...and you can take that to the bank!

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  9. #118
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    Fully agree Scott. They have tried, and lost. We love their past products, but its not happening again. We love their past products so much that there is a cult following. LUGS, (Bob) can jump in at any time!

  10. #119
    MSX 150 guy lives on Mr. GP1800's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K447 View Post
    is not those things.

    Even when tuned to ‘110hp’
    I would say the acceleration of my GP is more violent than any other machine I’ve ever ridden.

  11. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post
    I do really like the EXR. It's a huge step in the right direction for me. I think 4 strokes have been working towards getting smaller and more agile.



    I dunno, I just got off a 160hp 4 stroke Yamaha and it doesn't seem to feel anything like my pros. Maybe it's because I've gone through them and ported, polished, etc and I take good care of them. Maybe it's because you're higher up so you feel like you're going slower? I don't know, I know things are like that, old school snowmobiles feel faster just because you're closer to the ground, I don't know what the name for that is, when you're further away from something so it seems slower. It's awesome for pulling tubers, skiers, wakeboards and skates, etc.

    I don't like long cruises or anything. I basically stay in a small area and just cut and dart back and forth, I even have bouys I bring out. I have a wakeboard one for the superjet I practice jumping over and stuff. I think we have very different riding preferences and it's why we disagree so much. The most fun I have on a couch is setting up bouys and racing around them until I'm out of breath and exhaust, then I jump in the water, cool off and rest, then do it again until I'm exhausted. Driving through my own Klotz stank feels so good, too. My riding style isn't a big part of the market though. I do love how a Pro punishes you and makes you work for it. It feels good to get through a tank of gas and feel absolutely beat. I love it. Maybe I won't like it when I get older, but I'm already 34 and dealing with things pretty well.

    Deep down inside I want to see Polaris come back because I feel like they're the kind of company that would shove the Matrix motor with triple pipes and PVs into an updated Pro hull. It'd even be nice if they did something like kept the engine mounts the same. Imagine if they came out with new engines you could drop in old hulls. I don't know how many people would be excited to see something like that besides me though =/
    I’d love to see Polaris come back. Your not the only one

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