Page 10 of 14 FirstFirst ... 89101112 ... LastLast
Results 91 to 100 of 131
  1. #91
    savageman69's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    london ontario
    Posts
    398
    +1
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by Derwood98 View Post
    Great, agree to disagree! If we are talking about 1200 Polaris two strokes, love the platforms. If you you want to compare a 4 stroke 20 years later, good for you. We like the old school 2 stroke, screw your opinion of your comparison. We are not talking four stroke!

    Kevin, chime in here at any time!
    No need to be a douche bag

  2. +1 by:


  3. #92
    She likes the bike. But the ski gets her wet!!!! xlint89's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Cleveland OH
    Posts
    17,945
    +1
    73
    I'm not sure how this, is Polaris going to re-enter the market turned into a 4 VS. 2 stroke argument?

    I would think if they did get back into it, it would have to be a 4 stroke. Honestly, I didn't even think 2 strokes could be built any more due to emissions restrictions.
    I actually remember threads a while back about certain states or lakes that were possibly going to outlaw 2 strokes, never really heard any follow up. Maybe it was just proposed, shot down, and brushed under the rug. Not sure?

    It's interesting to read Keith and Brian's responses now. Both of them have a great wealth of knowledge with the old Polaris skis and seem to be poo-pooing them now. Quite surprised by that.

    I have to agree that the 200 hour rebuild and worried about constant failure is a bit out there. I've had many skis and very few failures because I'm pretty good about maintenance. Mostly because I like to wrench on them. If you don't, I can see that being a concern.

    Most of the failures I've ever had was more due to environment VS. 2 stroke related failure. Plastic bottle cap and drift wood stuck between the impeller and wear ring. (not 2 stroke related) Split an exhaust hose because a small stone clogged up my cooling orifice. (not 2 stroke related) Thru hull bearing mount failing (cracked fitting) not 2 stroke related. Busted reed petals because I hydrolocked the engine from capsizing the ski in 6' waves we were jumping. (not 2 stroke related)

    I did have a piston seizure problem a while back, but that was a Wiseco piston. Yes, technically that was 2 stroke related, but we also know Wiseco needed bigger clearances because of the cold seizure. I did have a piston failure at the Polaris gathering, but that was because I was frustrated with the ski and did an extended WOT run knowing it wasn't dialed in correctly. (was 2 stroke related, but more of rider neglect as it would still have been alive if I didn't ride like an idiot) I have had 1 piston failure that I was not sure why? Someone else was riding the ski and flagged me down to tell me it wasn't running right.

    Even with all these issues I've experienced, I have never worried about my skis not coming back. We ride hard and recklessly too.

    Now, when I do have failures of any type, I am back up and running the next day. (I have many spare parts because they are cheap and we have many skis between friends and can interchange parts) I also like the relative cheap cost to repair them. With exception to the Pro Nikasil cyls. That is expensive. But, that is not a normal ski either.

    The thing I love about my skis is the cost. I'm too cheap to pay a lot of $$ for a ski that I can only use a few months a year and only during the day time. That is why I can afford a small fleet of them. I have skis for friends and family if they come out. Or if I do have a failure of a ski, I have others to replace that one.

    Obviously I like the light weight hulls too. I am a playful rider, not a destination/touring rider. It's fun to be able to throw the ski around. I hated the MSX hull when we had that. It was a whale IMO. Very nose heavy, and did not handle any better in the chop. I don't know what you guys were talking about that claimed it did well. That ski was dead reliable though. Started right up , idled great, smooth take off and decent acceleration. Never had to do a thing to it except the fuel regulator that fell off. Once again, not a 2 stroke issue.

    Now I will be honest and admit I never rode any of the newer skis, so I don't know how well they are for wave jumping. I know my SLT 750 at 450 lbs is actually blown backwards when I get major air in high winds. That's a lot of fun. Do you guys take your skis in severe conditions willingly? We do. And if one breaks, not a problem.

    I did try Beerdart's MSX conversion when he built that and was still breaking it in at the New York gathering. It was impressive how fast and smoothly it got up to speed, but I do enjoy that violent 2 stroke "hit".

    I'm glad you guys enjoy what you bought. For me multiple mid 60's MPH skis in the $2500 range is fine.

    Please remember where you are posting and negativity towards our beloved skis isn't going to be received very well.


  4. #93
    She likes the bike. But the ski gets her wet!!!! xlint89's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Cleveland OH
    Posts
    17,945
    +1
    73
    If you guys think I'm kidding...

    This was with the heavier SLT 780 after I hydrolocked my SLT 750 earlier in the day.

    EDIT: matter of fact, that pic was taken 5 years ago and I haven't done anything to my SLT 750 since I fixed the reeds in it.

    I am due for a refresh though
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_0557.jpg 
Views:	26 
Size:	39.0 KB 
ID:	467351  

  5. +1 by:


  6. #94
    sdlvx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    297
    +1
    11
    Quote Originally Posted by xlint89 View Post
    If you guys think I'm kidding...

    This was with the heavier SLT 780 after I hydrolocked my SLT 750 earlier in the day.

    EDIT: matter of fact, that pic was taken 5 years ago and I haven't done anything to my SLT 750 since I fixed the reeds in it.

    I am due for a refresh though
    Those Fuji engines are just ridiculous. My first ski was an SL 750, and I was 13. It got totally abused, hydrolocked at least twice. I put so many hours on it compression fell down across all three cylinders evenly and we had to oversize bore it because there was too much clearance for just new rings, lol. We bought it as a repo from California for $500 + shipping, I think it was more shipping than the actual cost of the ski. I rode it until I grew out of it, sold it to a neighbor, and they're still riding it. There's nothing special about a 25 year old ski still running, but the amount of abuse I put that poor thing through when I didn't know any better, and to have it still going, is absolutely amazing to me.

    I feel like Polaris Fujis were nearly indestructible, then they took a while to get on their feet with the domestic engines, and as soon as they got the domestic two stroke thing under control, they stopped making them.


  7. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by K447 View Post
    Three failures with the actual supercharger - I presume this is across a fairly large number of Yamaha PWC you have worked on.


    Using aftermarket replacement internal supercharger parts, what would be a reasonable approach to preventive maintenance?
    Disassemble and just replace certain ‘at risk’ parts at xyz running hours?
    Inspect for wear but not replace if wear is minimal?
    Actually these are all my own boats.

  8. #96
    Derwood98's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Lakeville, Minnesota
    Posts
    677
    +1
    22
    Quote Originally Posted by savageman69 View Post
    No need to be a douche bag
    Please, and your +1. SMH.. Well said Kevin!! And thanks for jumping in.
    Last edited by Derwood98; 09-22-2020 at 10:09 PM.

  9. #97
    Click avatar for tech links/info K447's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    near Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    43,163
    +1
    2,258
    Quote Originally Posted by xlint89 View Post
    ... Keith and Brian's responses ... Both of them have a great wealth of knowledge with the old Polaris skis and seem to be poo-pooing them now.

    Quite surprised by that. ...
    Well, the original thread premise was about the possibility of Polaris re-entering the PWC market sometime in the near future.

    My view is that the bar is now set fairly high for a ‘new’ competitor to successfully gain market share.

    The 2-stroke angle came from speculation that somehow Polaris could produce a 2-stroke engine that overcame all the downsides of their prior 2-stroke PWC engines and be more than merely also-ran within the current ‘modern’ 4-stroke marketplace.

    Since I now own two modern Yamaha 4-stroke models I understand what they are and what the ownership experience is like. Owners of current generation SeaDoo models seem to have broadly similar perspectives. To re-enter the PWC market and win against these two PWC brands will require something more than merely matching products.

    And just matching the other products is a challenge. SeaDoo and Yamaha each have two good PWC engine types. The big engines (supercharged and NA) and the smaller engines (TR-1 and Spark) for the entry level watercraft.


    My own decade of Polaris watercraft ownership (we sometimes borrowed friend’s Polaris before then) naturally colors my perspective on reliability and engine durability. All were domestic engines, almost all were 1200’s. And almost all were Ficht fuel injected. And were designed twenty+ years ago.

    I never experienced 300 or 400 running hours on a given engine without rebuild.

    I am not a carb engine guy - just not my thing. The PWC emissions regulations did come into force against them in a number of regions. I have ridden other people’s blue Fuji engine machines and wrenched on a good handful while helping other people.

    My view is that Polaris had three ‘era’ of PWC engines. The Fuji engines through 1996.

    The red domestic engines 1996 until 1999. 700, 900 and 1050cc

    And the last era with 1200 engines from 2000-2004.

    The Pro 785 was an interesting specialty item. The Weber engine came right at the end and just did not work out. The Matrix was a quick hack hoping to generate some extra sales but it did not make much market sense and came several years too late.

    Overall I generally liked the blue Fuji engines (after 1993 when the crankcase cooling went away), despite the carburetors. My understanding is that Fuji originally designed them as industrial engines to drive water pumps in fields and other work-every-day uses. They had to run nearly forever with only the most basic maintenance.

    The larger and somewhat redesigned red ‘domestic’ engines at 900 and 1050cc do run nicely (but typically with a sudden power curve bump as the RPM climbed). Again, all carburetors, so not my thing, but they ran nicely.

    The red 1200 engines were something of a hack. The crank was not balanced anywhere nearly as nicely as the 1050. The 1200 engines shook and felt rough in the lower to mid-range RPM. The did make power but you always knew the engine was working away down there. Noisy at idle.

    The Ficht 1200 versions smoothed out the power curve and made the engine consistent and linear in throttle response. Did nothing for the inherent vibration and roughness.

    For the MSX 140 1200 engine Polaris did upgrade some aspects but not enough to make it ‘modern’. Not very smooth running, no big architectural advancements other than Nikasil. No noticeable increase in power.

    Back when Polaris was last in the business their most powerful PWC engines were not strongly competitive against the then-current generation of 4-stroke SeaDoo. Yamaha was also moving to 4-stroke.

    Today, Polaris would have to somehow not only overcome the inherent trade-offs and limitations of the most modern 2-stroke engines (such as E-Tec) but also find a way to blunt the current success of Seadoo and Yamaha.

  10. #98
    She likes the bike. But the ski gets her wet!!!! xlint89's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Cleveland OH
    Posts
    17,945
    +1
    73
    As I said, I'm not all up on the new models, but if Polaris came out with a budget ski like the Spark, they could possibly do well. Possibly better if they were made in the U.S. but prob. will be made in Mexico.

    SD was smart when they brought that (Spark) out. The new models are priced way too high for a typical family.

    Most families would like to have 2 skis so mom and dad can ride with a child. The big ski is still just a 3 seater. And with the steep price tag, a second ski is out of the question.

    Most people think 50 MPH is fast and don't need an 80 MPH ski. Now us experienced riders , that's a whole different story and we are willing to pay the price. Most moms would never consider doing 50 MPH with their kids.

    We're assuming if they got back into it, it would be a sit down. Hell, people loved and still actually seek out the Octane. There's not a lot of competition in the sit down market any more. Maybe they'll try to rejuvenate the stand ups?

    Hopefully we'll get to find out.

  11. #99
    Click avatar for tech links/info K447's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    near Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    43,163
    +1
    2,258
    Quote Originally Posted by xlint89 View Post
    ... if Polaris came out with a budget ski like the Spark, they could possibly do well. ...

    SD was smart when they brought that (Spark) out. ...

    Most families would like to have 2 skis so mom and dad can ride ...

    ...
    We're assuming if they got back into it, it would be a sit down. Hell, people loved and still actually seek out the Octane.

    There's not a lot of competition in the sit down market any more. Maybe they'll try to rejuvenate the stand ups? ...
    Not following your thoughts on the sit-down vs. stand-up types.

    There are only two stand-up models sold new today (from a major manufacturer), one from Yamaha and a rather big one from Kawasaki.

    In the sit-down market there are multiple hull sizes, models and weights from Seadoo, and at least three from Yamaha. Above the Spark are larger Seadoo models also made with polytech plastic hull, then several more entry level models, and then the ‘big’ models with big engine options. Seadoo does have quite the model range.

    Kawasaki even introduced a new mid-sized PWC model recently. They still sell the huge Ultra hulls. Not sure if the venerable STX-15f is still being offered.


    In the sit-down market there are many customer types. One that I often encounter in my own riding is the ‘older’ couple. They may still be working with well paying jobs or recently retired. They used to, and may still have, a nice boat but their kids are now grown up and busy with their own lives.

    The grand kids show up now and then, but the ‘older’ couple is often by themselves and just wants to get out on the water. So they buy a nice comfortable SeaDoo or Yamaha model. They are not price sensitive, they can afford to buy whatever model they like. They may buy two.

    It is way less hassle to trailer their PWC to a ‘new to them’ water area than hauling the huge boat around. And the Seadoo lets them explore shallow areas that they would not dare take the boat.

  12. #100
    sdlvx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    297
    +1
    11
    Quote Originally Posted by K447 View Post
    Not following your thoughts on the sit-down vs. stand-up types.

    There are only two stand-up models sold new today (from a major manufacturer), one from Yamaha and a rather big one from Kawasaki.

    In the sit-down market there are multiple hull sizes, models and weights from Seadoo, and at least three from Yamaha. Above the Spark are larger Seadoo models also made with polytech plastic hull, then several more entry level models, and then the ‘big’ models with big engine options. Seadoo does have quite the model range.

    Kawasaki even introduced a new mid-sized PWC model recently. They still sell the huge Ultra hulls. Not sure if the venerable STX-15f is still being offered.


    In the sit-down market there are many customer types. One that I often encounter in my own riding is the ‘older’ couple. They may still be working with well paying jobs or recently retired. They used to, and may still have, a nice boat but their kids are now grown up and busy with their own lives.

    The grand kids show up now and then, but the ‘older’ couple is often by themselves and just wants to get out on the water. So they buy a nice comfortable SeaDoo or Yamaha model. They are not price sensitive, they can afford to buy whatever model they like. They may buy two.

    It is way less hassle to trailer their PWC to a ‘new to them’ water area than hauling the huge boat around. And the Seadoo lets them explore shallow areas that they would not dare take the boat.
    Forum ate my post. But here's the scoop with stand ups. A lot of stand up people absolutely hate the new 4 stroke ones. A 1500 SXR weighs more than a Pro 785 and a lot of two stroke, two seater jet skis. It's 500+ pounds. The new SJ is 7 inches longer, a few inches wider, and still quite heavy compared to a two stroke SJ that's only around 270.

    There is a lot of demand for two stroke stand ups. They are seeing a huge resurgence. You can tell by the prices, I bought my 750 SXI about 15 years ago for $1,500, they're going for $2,000+ now. I got a smoking deal on my 650 SuperJet, but they still were going for around $1,500 in that condition when I bought it. Now they're going for $2,500+.

    The price of used two stroke stand ups has been going up, it went up when Kawasaki discontinued the 800 SXR, and it looks like it's gone up now that Yamaha discontinued the 701 Superjet.

    There's a lot of demand for them. I used to be the only one on the lake who had one, and I got a lot of stares. Now there's several houses that have at least one. And two stroke stand up demand is just increasing more and more the less there are. I do everything I can to preserve and take care of mine because I know what happens when parts get hard to find thanks to the Pro 785s. But a lot of two stroke stand up guys don't. And I think if nothing enters the market, they're just going to go up and up in price.

    Realistically, as a stand-up guy, I could see Polaris releasing the Octane again, changing absolutely nothing about it, not even new graphics, and selling them like crazy. Yamaha had to make sure you had IJSBA paperwork to sell someone a two stroke Superjet, it only cost $50 and it was sort of a joke to go there and say you'd get it for racing and you never would. But if that hurdle was removed, a revival of the Polaris Octane 2 stroke would be absolutely beloved by stand up guys. I can promise you. It might be removed depending on how the election goes.

Page 10 of 14 FirstFirst ... 89101112 ... LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 3 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 3 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 10
    Last Post: 06-08-2020, 11:53 AM
  2. Back In The Game
    By Mik72e in forum Conversion PWC Performance Skis
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 05-21-2015, 09:06 AM
  3. Back in the GAME !!!!!
    By 1_Fast_SHO in forum Yamaha Old School Skis
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 10-22-2010, 10:16 PM
  4. I'm back in the game
    By codemanrose in forum Yamaha Old School Skis
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 07-19-2010, 01:22 PM
  5. Considering Getting Back In The Game
    By OKRedline in forum Sea Doo Open Discussion
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 07-19-2009, 01:49 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •