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  1. #31
    Bob 1tommygunner1927's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcuhpw View Post
    There will always be a trade off. Let’s just get used to it, the carbon seals are here for the foreseeable future. Proper maintenance will avoid probably 95% of these issues.

    The best way to solve the carbon seal, bellows, hat, C clip issues is to buy a Yamaha!
    Last edited by 1tommygunner1927; 09-15-2020 at 09:00 AM.

  2. #32
    Gus13letter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1tommygunner1927 View Post
    Click on my build thread, last page, to see it in action!

    http://www.easyrider.store/product-category/rotax-sea-doo-2/drive-shaft-parts/










    Nice setup!

  3. #33
    Bob 1tommygunner1927's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pro1200 View Post
    When analyzing mechanical failures there is rarely just one cause. Granted, there are some failures due to excessive idling out of the water. Each one of my six failures have had a slightly different failure mode. The fatal one was where the clip that keeps the sealing ring in place wore through which of course allows the ring to slide forward on the drive shaft. The theory that I'm currently working with is that because of uneven loading at the sealing ring/carbon ring interface, a wobble develops in the carbon ring. This wobble wears the clip and the the groove in the drive shaft that clip fits in. I have had at least two shafts and carbon rings replaced, under warranty, just for this reason.

    Again, with this design, a lot of variables can get out of whack but the main flaw is that there is not a secondary seal to prevent a hull breach.

    Whenever replacing the bellows, carbon seal, hat, and C clip, the driveshaft needs to be inspected at the C clip groove. If the grove edge is rounded, replace the driveshaft!

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  5. #34
    Bob 1tommygunner1927's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gus13letter View Post
    Nice setup!
    Thank you, Gus.

  6. #35
    I did hear that they made some changes to the 2021 driveline setup I’m guessing cause of the idf. We should know soon

  7. #36
    SplishSplash's Avatar
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    Just to clear some things up about how the bellows and carbon seal work.
    #1, a soft Bellows will not cause the ski to sink, Heat fron running the engine onland will not hurt the bellows (unless it's for say 15 to 20 min and it actually melts, but I have NEVER seen a melted bellows.
    #2 Bellows needs to be slightly elastic, as it pushes harder in proportion to jetpump pressures, so the faster you go, the more it pushes the Carbon ring on the Hat. Bellows fail when they get HARD and old, then they do not expand forward as much with jetpump pressure and then it can leak. But it will not cause rapid sinking, its will be a leak that gets worse over time but not all at once.
    #3 Carbon ring, Running it dry actually over heats it and destroys the micro pores in the face of the ring. This renders the ring useless and cannot be saved once it is over heated, it has to be replaced. Saying "it looks" fine after a 10 min dry run on the hose means nothing as the surface has been destroyed.
    Why does this matter? Well the carbon ring, in the water, running, NEVER touches the Hat, there is a very thin film of water inbedded in the pores of the carbon ring that acually act like tiny ball bearings and the clearnace is so close that water cannot get through (a few small drops do.)
    Without the micropores, the water film is not created and the seal cannot happen and the thing leaks under high pump pressures.
    These clearance is so small, salt molecules cannot fit in the gap.
    Wear, this is normal, as the ring will abate its seal surface running in water, creating a new face all the time. As long as water is involved, the micropores will be fine as the ring abates, a dry ring destroys the surface (actually fuses the micro pores into a shiny mass that cannot do it s job.)

    #3 Alignment and motor stability. The engne has to run true to the hat and ring and it has to have good mounts to keep that in spec or else uneven pressures on the ring occur and the micropores have a hard time forming and maintaining the water bearing. This life will be short for a ring in that situation.
    This also includes being sure the HAT is square to the ring, often due to the tight tolerances and shaft contamination this can be off and its as bad as a missaligned engine. You can look at the hat with the engine running and see if its running true. Also a badly aligned engine can result in C-clip and and shaft grove wear that will ruin your carbon ring and no mater how many times you change it, it will fail in short order.

    #4 Oil contamination. This can be an issue too. If you have oil contamination of the carbon ring when running dry on the hose, the pores will fill with oil and next ride the carbon ring cannot do it job as well, but at high speeds, the oil can be "flung" out of the carbon ring and the water bearing can form.

    Conclusion, Never run dry for more than 30 seconds
    Check the hat and carbon ring run true
    Check aligmentent is in spec (it won't change unless a mount fails or engine removed)
    Check the Bellows has not become hard.

    If all are as above, then a carbon ring and hat can easily go over 200 hrs, and 10 years. I changed mine at 150 hrs and 10 years, it was worn no more than 1/8 th of an inch compared to the new one. Also when you change it, if the wear on the ring is not even them you need to fix that or it will fail sooner than it should.

    Remeber the seal in the Cooling system water pump is a carbon ring seal, its always in coolant and works exactly the same way and the drive carbon ring. But how many of those have you seen fail? Not many as they are perfectly aligned and always wet. I saw 2 fail at a shop when the engine was rebuit and fired up dry (no coolant) to see if it ran. It ran but destroyed the face of the water pump seal and it leaked. ** never run a new built engine without first filling the cooling system.**


  8. #37
    r1goombah's Avatar
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    i never had one issuie with my carbon ring on my 15 gtx, i had the motor pulled to install arp flywheel bolts and a new carbon ring at 100 hours just cause it was apart around 80 hours, jump to 130 hours when i detonated cylinder #3. had motor pulled for repair and when reinstalling motor was not aligned from work done at hour 80, so i was pretty much a lucky one with not leaking/sinking, have my 21 tx on order and heading straight down to buddy to check alignment for piece of mind

  9. #38
    xplayer2885's Avatar
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    Seadoos are the best looks skis hands down. With that said......My own Seadoo nearly sank and needed a motor rebuild under warranty....Was never the same again....This past summer at my marina there was a 300 tied to the dock submerged, and out on the bay I helped bring a sinking seadoo to the beach....They are the biggest piles of expensive shit.....An I will gladly take the soft paint Yamaha uses over worrying about sinking.

  10. #39
    Team Bilford's Avatar
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    The recent batch of carbon rings that failed were due to a change of vendor that used a poor composition of materials. At least that is what I have heard from some industry folks. I believe they were used in certain models, but not all. My 18 RXP has no issues at 80 hours and doesn't leave any dust nor does it leak.

    I have owned 5 Doos. One for 21 years and another for 17 and still going. I have never serviced or replaced a carbon seal. It is my understanding that the problem has been addressed. I hope so and maybe BRP will not try to save a buck by changing vendors.

  11. #40
    prowler1k's Avatar
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    Between my parents and I, we have owned over 17 Sea-doo's starting back with a new 92XP.

    All of the 4tec skis we have owned have never had a carbon ring issue.

    The older two stroke series did have some issues with the driveshaft seal, but those were easy to fix.

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