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  1. #71
    SplishSplash's Avatar
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    Pro10is, pleas stop, you don't get it!

    Why did BRP move assemby to Mexico? 1 Reason, Profit per machine at any cost! They negociated a deal with the Mexican assemblers that showed they could make more money per machine over assembling it in Canada. So BEAN counters moved production.

    At the Mexican factory, the rule is simple. Show max profit per machine. That means cut every corner you can.

    How do you cut corners. Thinner Gelcoat, Bare minimum of the spec. (thus thin gelcoat). Turn the sprayer nozzle down to apply the least possible to get coverage. Turn it up on test samples.

    Next, Build it as fast as you can. No time to double check. Still meets the spec layed out by BRP, but again with no QC time to check.

    QC, again limited because the machines are coming off the line so fast. Canada may have had 3 QC inspectors to only one in mexico.

    Then its the workers, how do you save money there? Well less of them, doing more, things get missed.

    Its not Mexican workers are lazy or unskilled, they are pushed to the limit, then beyond all in the name of Profit and no union is there to protect them.

    All Managment in Mexico looks at is cost/machine to produce so they can send glowing number back to BRP. If that number is not there, then BRP will move production elsewhere.

    So please stop, I have worked in the Auto sector for years, this is EXACTLY what happns at Mexican plants unless the head office steps in and makes changes.

    Mexican workers, work hard, but if your tasked to do more with less, then Quality suffers. In Canada or the US, Unions make sure that does not happen to the level in Mexico.

    The worker is happy to have the job, no doubt, BRP is happy with the Profit magins, the only one that suffers is the consumer if the plant is run on the profit per unit structure. Margins are so thin in the Recreation product world, this is how it is.

  2. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by SplishSplash View Post
    Pro10is, pleas stop, you don't get it!

    Why did BRP move assemby to Mexico? 1 Reason, Profit per machine at any cost! They negociated a deal with the Mexican assemblers that showed they could make more money per machine over assembling it in Canada. So BEAN counters moved production.

    At the Mexican factory, the rule is simple. Show max profit per machine. That means cut every corner you can.

    How do you cut corners. Thinner Gelcoat, Bare minimum of the spec. (thus thin gelcoat). Turn the sprayer nozzle down to apply the least possible to get coverage. Turn it up on test samples.

    Next, Build it as fast as you can. No time to double check. Still meets the spec layed out by BRP, but again with no QC time to check.

    QC, again limited because the machines are coming off the line so fast. Canada may have had 3 QC inspectors to only one in mexico.

    Then its the workers, how do you save money there? Well less of them, doing more, things get missed.

    Its not Mexican workers are lazy or unskilled, they are pushed to the limit, then beyond all in the name of Profit and no union is there to protect them.

    All Managment in Mexico looks at is cost/machine to produce so they can send glowing number back to BRP. If that number is not there, then BRP will move production elsewhere.

    So please stop, I have worked in the Auto sector for years, this is EXACTLY what happns at Mexican plants unless the head office steps in and makes changes.

    Mexican workers, work hard, but if your tasked to do more with less, then Quality suffers. In Canada or the US, Unions make sure that does not happen to the level in Mexico.

    The worker is happy to have the job, no doubt, BRP is happy with the Profit magins, the only one that suffers is the consumer if the plant is run on the profit per unit structure. Margins are so thin in the Recreation product world, this is how it is.
    What on Earth are you talking about that I don't get it?? The points you're making here are virtually parallel to my own, that the production worker is not to blame for any perceived diminishing of quality. We're agreeing, not disagreeing. How could you miss that?

    Please go back and read my posts. I don't disagree with the possibility of anything you mentioned (although I don't have any proof that everything you say is necessarily 100% true). My message all along is that BRP is primarily to blame. What I strongly disagree with and argued against was the prejudice and stereotypes other people here were espousing or insinuating against Mexican production workers, putting the blame primarily on them for quality issues. Nor does this have anything to do with Mexico per se, cutting back on quality can happen at any production facility, in Mexico, North America, or anywhere else in the world. Yet the perception expressed by some here is that it's somehow all Mexico's fault, like they're independent of BRP. BRP owns, controls, and operates the plant.

    Of course BRP moved production to Mexico to lower costs and increase profits. I clearly said that here in post #41. They need to keep the costs down to remain competitive while still growing their profits. I said that too. And of course the Mexican plant managers are under pressure to show maximum profit per machine which is very carefully tracked by the BRP corporate bean counters in Canada. Like you, I also said that BRP probably specs thinner gel coat and CM-Tech to lower costs and weight. I also agree that margins are indeed thin in recreational products because we put a lot of pressure on them to produce ultra-high performance products without raising the purchase costs. I made that point too.

    We're both making the same points, so how is it that you think I don't get it while you let the others who blatantly falsely insinuate or allude that the Mexican production workers are to blame, go uncriticized? So who's being unfair, me or them? How about telling them to "please stop"? According to what you and I both agree upon, they're the ones who don't get it, and they're the ones that need to stop.
    Last edited by pro10is; 11-11-2018 at 10:32 AM.

  3. #73
    DR2006RXP's Avatar
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    2018 RXP Death Trap

    Not looking to derail this from its original intention but I will also vent my concerns in regards to BRP quality practices and venturing away from a known dependable materials used in the past into this new paper mache / card board looking Hull material , I took it upon myself to keep my investment afloat despite the cost involved . at the end of the day it is my responsibility to keep me and my family safe while using this floating cardboard with an engine . 2018 gutted and reinforced with an extra 3 layers of fiberglass the way it should had been built at the factory , so what if it goes 1-2 mph slower , safety first .
    Last edited by DR2006RXP; 11-16-2018 at 07:52 AM.

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  5. #74
    Drawz02's Avatar
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    DR... I agree. I was wave jumping on my 2012 a few years ago in some quite large waves and came back to the dock when this kid said dude that narley! I joked and took it as a compliment. As I turn around and my rear deck was gone! It was like someone took a cheese knife and took half the thickness of the fibreglass off the width of the machine and about 14 inches up towards the seat. Super long story short the resin never completely permiated the glass and it was a defect in the hull. Yet again no damage from hitting anything and the shop that did the repairs said that it was just a poorly built hull and never should have done that. BRP covered it after a fight and to this day the unit still has very strange glass issues. When I talked to BRP about the 2018 I brought the issues with the 2012. He said he can look at my case but unfortunately the 5 year hull warranty is up and I'm SOL. I'd take a safe machine any day over an extra 2mph.

  6. #75
    Click avatar for tech links/info K447's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR2006RXP View Post
    ... I took it upon myself ... 2018 gutted and reinforced with an extra 3 layers of fiberglass ...
    Epoxy resin?

  7. #76
    GOT BOOST? Dockside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pro10is View Post
    A North America room and a Mexican room? Wow, is that really how your brain works? You just don't get it, do you? Despite your obvious sad prejudices and pathetic, simplistic logic, there would be no difference in quality because both would have been designed and engineered in Canada and both would be subject to the exact same production techniques and quality controls. That's the whole point, you can build these things virtually anywhere in the world with unskilled production workers and they would come out the same. The quality is dependant on the design and production techniques, not the laborers. Remember the Chinese chicken farmers? If they can build iPhones, almost anyone can build almost anything using the same modern production techniques. When you go to buy your smartphone do you require a Chinese chicken farmer room and a North American room, or are you satisfied with the quality?

    If, after everything I explained, you still somehow believe a modern production corporation is in any way going to allow their lowly production workers to adversely affect the quality of their finished product, then you're as dumb as they come.

    If you lack the intelligence or insight to understand that, or your sad prejudices rule over your ability to think properly, then good luck trying to buy products built only in North America because more than half of what you own didn't come from a North American room.
    so moral of the story is.... if brp cant figure out how to do up a hose clamp then I shouldnít trust them to design and engineer a watercraft. Not sure why your fighting this so hard the facts that the quality suck more since the move is legit. I have a lot of friends that work on assembly lines for Ford, gym and Toyota. I agree they donít need to be skilled but they do play a role in the final quality of the product. Is a worker making 10 bucks a day going to give a shit about the quality? Nope! If he sees an issue like say not enough gelcoat going on the mood are they going to say something and correct the problem? Nope thier going to let it go and keep popping them out as fast as possible cause know one will notice till ďweĒ the customers buys it. Brp play a big role in quality but when a product isnít meeting certain quality controls, itís up to the worker and management running the factory to address the issues and fix the problem. If thereís a quality control issue how do the big wigs in Canada know thereís an issue when shits made in Mexico. You say itís their fault but if they donít know of a problem then it canít be fixed. The workers have control over quality but they donít get paid enough to give a shit. They show up do there job and go home and could care less if the product sucks.


  8. #77
    Tool Bag water worx's Avatar
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    Bottom line....BRP is building garbage & when you guys continue to buy their garbage it shows them that its OK to build garbage because people will continue to buy it.

    STOP BUYING THEIR GARBAGE!!!

  9. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by pro10is View Post
    A North America room and a Mexican room? Wow, is that really how your brain works? You just don't get it, do you? Despite your obvious sad prejudices and pathetic, simplistic logic, there would be no difference in quality because both would have been designed and engineered in Canada and both would be subject to the exact same production techniques and quality controls. That's the whole point, you can build these things virtually anywhere in the world with unskilled production workers and they would come out the same. The quality is dependant on the design and production techniques, not the laborers. Remember the Chinese chicken farmers? If they can build iPhones, almost anyone can build almost anything using the same modern production techniques. When you go to buy your smartphone do you require a Chinese chicken farmer room and a North American room, or are you satisfied with the quality?

    If, after everything I explained, you still somehow believe a modern production corporation is in any way going to allow their lowly production workers to adversely affect the quality of their finished product, then you're as dumb as they come.

    If you lack the intelligence or insight to understand that, or your sad prejudices rule over your ability to think properly, then good luck trying to buy products built only in North America because more than half of what you own didn't come from a North American room.
    Typical liberal playbook...have an opinion that isnt politically correct and you dont agree with and a liberal tries to discredit and shut you down by calling you prejudiced, simple minded and cant think properly without knowing anything about you.

    First make no mistake I dont think that the Mexican workers arent hard workers or it is primarily on them or bad people for god sake, I would just rather my ski be made in North America...I am prejudiced for that! In my opinion the ski would be better made in North America, its an opinion just like your opinion is that it doesnt matter.

    Once again show me the BRP spec that has the hose attached so it falls off. If that was the spec then each and everyone would fall off, which obviously isnt the case. My guess is that is a worker error.
    Last edited by Gibbs44; 11-12-2018 at 03:04 PM.

  10. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gibbs44 View Post
    Typical liberal playbook...have an opinion that isnt politically correct and you dont agree with and a liberal tries to discredit and shut you down by calling you prejudiced, simple minded and cant think properly without knowing anything about you.

    First make no mistake I dont think that the Mexican workers arent hard workers or it is primarily on them or bad people for god sake, I would just rather my ski be made in North America...I am prejudiced for that! In my opinion the ski would be better made in North America, its an opinion just like your opinion is that it doesnt matter.

    Once again show me the BRP spec that has the hose attached so it falls off. If that was the spec then each and everyone would fall off, which obviously isnt the case. My guess is that is a worker error.


    Come on now, let's not go down this road...let's equally offend everyone then no one feelings get hurt.

    Drunk Mexicans or high Canadians...hard to say which would be better in a factory environment.


  11. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Gibbs44 View Post
    Typical liberal playbook...have an opinion that isnt politically correct and you dont agree with and a liberal tries to discredit and shut you down by calling you prejudiced, simple minded and cant think properly without knowing anything about you.

    First make no mistake I dont think that the Mexican workers arent hard workers or it is primarily on them or bad people for god sake, I would just rather my ski be made in North America...I am prejudiced for that! In my opinion the ski would be better made in North America, its an opinion just like your opinion is that it doesnt matter.

    Once again show me the BRP spec that has the hose attached so it falls off. If that was the spec then each and everyone would fall off, which obviously isnt the case. My guess is that is a worker error.
    Who the hell said I was a liberal?? I'm a moderate, always have been always will be. You obviously don't know anything about me either. I consider both liberals and conservatives to be radicals because they both usually have extreme viewpoints and never listen to each other even though they both have important, vital things to say. Neither side is right about everything and neither is wrong about everything, but that's how they both respectively see it. Both liberals and conservatives love their country and want the best for it, but they're both tearing it apart because neither will ever listen to the other and the sides are drawn. It's rapidly becoming worse. This is how societies and countries crumble and decline. History is replete with such tragedies.

    Other than their politics, liberals and conservatives are much more alike than they think they are because they're both so damn stubborn about everything. If more people were moderate we could meet somewhere in the middle, make rational decisions, and make progress rather than being forever divided. United we stand, divided we fall.

    But I digress. It's perfectly ok to want things made in North America. I do too. We agree on that. What was upsetting me was some ignorantly putting the blame on the production workers who absolutely have no say in anything, do only what they're told, and are watched like hawks. From everything I know about production, which is a hella lot, because that's what I've done for a living for over four decades, there is definitely a spec for attaching hose clamps, there is a spec for virtually everything. I know because I'm one of the engineers who writes them. We have spec for every operation, and I mean every operation, and our production workers are not allowed to touch a damn thing until they're fully trained and prove themselves. They have to log on each lot in with a bar code on their badge and then a computer tracks them and everything they do. If they make one f-up we'll find out about it then we're on them like stink on shit. Make no mistake about that. It's laughable to think that some production worker is going to be allowed to dictate quality. Laughable. Anyone who keeps trying to make that point is simply ignorant about how this works.

    And for most operations, there is most likely very highly specialized tooling. Such tooling would be used to set the torque. So no, they don't use conventional torque wrenches as we would use, those would be way too slow and bulky. It's most likely an air or electrically driven, felixable, specialized tool that stops when the specified torque is reached. The problem is that BRP has the torque setting way too low. Prove this for yourself. Set the hose clamp torque to the setting in the shop manual. Then, using a socket on the gear nut, loosen it by hand. You'll see it loosens way too easily.

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