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  1. #51
    www.eastcoastpwc.net Scott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DinoMite View Post
    But I didn't say Tacos?

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by DinoMite View Post
    Just curious, what info do you have that BRP is using less gel coat on their hulls? Is something they are doing on the 18/19 models? My 12 and 16 PX have what I would consider quite thick gel coats, especially on the bottom. I could probably measure it on my 16 where my nephew ran over an oyster bed.
    The info comes from people in this forum complaining about it, which is admittedly empirical, but that's all we have to go by. Better to ask Dockside, he says the gel coat on his lower hull was "paper thin" or Team Bilford who said that the gel coat over the fiberglass on the hull of his 2018 RXP is "as thin as paint".

    Personally, I think those who still have gel coat are lucky as I have CM-Tech on my '18 GTX. If the trend toward alternative lighter weight hulls continues, gel coat on skis may become a thing of the past.

  3. #53
    GOT BOOST? Dockside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pro10is View Post
    The info comes from people in this forum complaining about it, which is admittedly empirical, but that's all we have to go by. Better to ask Dockside, he says the gel coat on his lower hull was "paper thin" or Team Bilford who said that the gel coat over the fiberglass on the hull of his 2018 RXP is "as thin as paint".

    Personally, I think those who still have gel coat are lucky as I have CM-Tech on my '18 GTX. If the trend toward alternative lighter weight hulls continues, gel coat on skis may become a thing of the past.
    yup the carpet on my lift wore through the gelcoat befor the ski had 20hrs on it. Some skis have the proper amount and some dont. This is something the worker have control over. Same with the clamps, the workers aren’t even trying to tighten the clamps. Mine were so lose there was no was a tool ever touched it. People would never except this shit on a brand new car but for some reason it’s fine on a brand new seadoo?


  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Dockside View Post
    yup the carpet on my lift wore through the gelcoat befor the ski had 20hrs on it. Some skis have the proper amount and some dont. This is something the worker have control over. Same with the clamps, the workers aren’t even trying to tighten the clamps. Mine were so lose there was no was a tool ever touched it. People would never except this shit on a brand new car but for some reason it’s fine on a brand new seadoo?
    The Mexico plant is new. Chances are more likely than not that the gel coat is applied by robotics or other automation, not workers.

    As for the clamps, take a look at the clamp tightening torques that BRP specs:



    When I heard there were issues with loose clamps, I decided to tighten them all to BRPs specs using a torque wrench. After I did, I found that they were still so loose you could turn the hose clamps screws by hand. Try it for yourself, tighten the Intercooler water hose clamp to 15 inch-pounds force as spec'd. Then see for yourself how loose it is. I think BRP was more concerned with stripping the clamps than ensuring a tight connection. I was able to tighten them several more revs before I felt they were properly tightened.

    This may be the reason we're seeing loose clamps.
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  5. #55
    GOT BOOST? Dockside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pro10is View Post
    The Mexico plant is new. Chances are more likely than not that the gel coat is applied by robotics or other automation, not workers.

    As for the clamps, take a look at the clamp tightening torques that BRP specs:



    When I heard there were issues with loose clamps, I decided to tighten them all to BRPs specs using a torque wrench. After I did, I found that they were still so loose you could turn the hose clamps screws by hand. Try it for yourself, tighten the Intercooler water hose clamp to 15 inch-pounds force as spec'd. Then see for yourself how loose it is. I think BRP was more concerned with stripping the clamps than ensuring a tight connection. I was able to tighten them several more revs before I felt they were properly tightened.

    This may be the reason we're seeing loose clamps.
    no way in hell you’ll tighten the hose clamps with a torque wrench on a 16-17 rxp 300. To be honest I really don’t care what you say. Since the move to Mexico the quality has gone down hill, point the finger where ever you want the fact is the quality sucks. At the end of the day if the build quality sucks you’re going to blame the people who are actually building them PERIOD. robot sparying gelcoat, yup probably right but there still people who over see that it’s being done correctly but clearly they’re not.

  6. #56
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    They use this new acrylic for the top that has a ton of issues. I got sent this in the mail. Gel coat can take a real beating. This new stuff is just a cheap way of saving $$$ while still charging top dollar. If you start reading more lots of people have cracks coming through and chipping on practically new machines.
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  7. #57
    Tool Bag water worx's Avatar
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    I think it was Einstein that said "Doing the same thing over & over & expecting different results is the definition of insanity"

    IMO BRP has gone insane. LOL

  8. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by pro10is View Post
    If the gel coat is paper thin, you should blame BRP, they set the standards, not the Mexicans. Their mfg process specs the exact thickness of the gel coat and their quality control ensures it. So if it's thin it was spec'd that way, in Canada, by BRP/SeaDoo, by their manufacturing engineering and management group. Not by Mexico. The workers are just machines, part of the process. They do only what they're told and their job depends on it. Any lack of skills/intelligence is factored in and is not a requirement. No real skills or intelligence are required for most of the processes, just some basic training and process controls. Even these unskilled workers are becoming obsolete as robotics replace them wherever possible. It was probably robotics that applied your paper thin gel coat, ultra-precisely to exactly what was spec'd by BRP. How is that the fault of the Mexicans?

    If the hose clamps are loose, again blame BRP, the workers are assembling them to BRP's spec with BRP's tooling, under BRP's auspices, with BRP quality control. Again, all this comes from Canada, not Mexico. Do you honestly think that BRP would allow the Mexican plant to make products not to their exact specs? Not a chance. If there are quality control issues, manufacturing deficiencies, and/or defective components, then BRP is solely responsible.

    BRP is fully responsible for what comes out of their production facilities whether they're in Mexico or on the moon. The Mexican plant does not operate in a vacuum, you can bet your ass that BRP is in full control of it, down to the last detail. So don't rag on the country or the underpaid workers, place the blame where it is due, on BRP. And you know who else? Us. Yes, us.

    BRP moved their SeaDoo production facility to Mexico because Mexicans will work for considerably less than North Americans (Canada included). They don't have the opportunity to enjoy our quality of life or the pay and benefits we take for granted. BRP did this to keep the prices reasonable while constantly under pressure to increase performance and stay competitive. These are things we demand from them. No one wants to pay $25,000 or more for a ski, but that's probably what they would have cost if they continued to make them in North America. So, like many US and Canadian companies, BRP (probably reluctantly) finally had to make the decision to considerably cut labor costs by employing downtrodden foreign workers and paying them less. Many of the poorer paid workers in Mexico can only dream about owning the PWC's they spend 12 hours a day assembling for us.

    Additionally, BRP now specs thinner gel coat and lightweight materials like CM-Tech to lower the weight so their top of the line models will go a few lousy seconds or tenths of a second faster than the competition, something else we want. We're not blameless here, we demand the best, ultra-performance skis made, but we don't want to pay the cost of what it would take to make them using North America workers or the costlier engines required to make them go faster with heavier, properly built hulls.

    So with demanding, hypercritical buyers putting constant pressure on a company to produce ultra-high performance skis at a price we're willing to pay, something had to give. That something was North American jobs and quality built-to-last skis. And what do we do? Blame the Mexicans. Why not? We're sure as hell not going to blame ourselves, we had absolutely nothing to do with it. Yep, it's definitely the Mexicans.
    Pro10is...what a bunch of drivel!

    First, if a hose clamp is loose, its the worker not BRP, BRP doesnt have a spec to put on a hose clamp loose! Somebody didnt do what they were suppose to do or told to do. And blaming the consumer, unbelievable. It doenst take alot of skill to work in a factory but it does take some attention to detail and pride in the product. BRP went to Mexico for one reason and only one reason..to save money.

    Why do you think as you say they reluctantly went to Mexico? Whats the difference between a factory in Canada and Mexico...the people. No doubt the product would be better if made in North America.

    The only thing I agree with and your nonsense posts in this thread are that ultimately BRP is responsible for QC.

  9. #59

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    Last edited by Ryanfunfishing; 11-10-2018 at 10:02 AM.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Dockside View Post
    no way in hell you’ll tighten the hose clamps with a torque wrench on a 16-17 rxp 300. To be honest I really don’t care what you say. Since the move to Mexico the quality has gone down hill, point the finger where ever you want the fact is the quality sucks. At the end of the day if the build quality sucks you’re going to blame the people who are actually building them PERIOD. robot sparying gelcoat, yup probably right but there still people who over see that it’s being done correctly but clearly they’re not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gibbs44 View Post
    Pro10is...what a bunch of drivel!

    First, if a hose clamp is loose, its the worker not BRP, BRP doesnt have a spec to put on a hose clamp loose! Somebody didnt do what they were suppose to do or told to do. And blaming the consumer, unbelievable. It doenst take alot of skill to work in a factory but it does take some attention to detail and pride in the product. BRP went to Mexico for one reason and only one reason..to save money.

    Why do you think as you say they reluctantly went to Mexico? Whats the difference between a factory in Canada and Mexico...the people. No doubt the product would be better if made in North America.

    The only thing I agree with and your nonsense posts in this thread are that ultimately BRP is responsible for QC.
    Haters gonna hate and truth is always buried by the hands of haters.

    You want to blame the Mexican production workers? Go ahead, but you are both dead wrong and perhaps too consumed by prejudice to see the facts. You speak from ignorance of modern production if you think for one second that production workers would ever be allowed to be a continued source of defective products in a major company. This is 2018, not 1918. Modern production techniques virtually eliminate the need for skilled workers. Are you viewing this forum on your top-of-the-line Apple iPhone or laptop/desktop computer? Well, they were both made in China by unskilled workers, many who came from backwoods rural areas to make better wages. They have zero skills in anything electronic yet they assemble and produce some of the most sophisticated electronics available worldwide because most modern production techniques require no skills. Yep, you're viewing this forum on electronics assembled by Chinese chicken farmers. If your iPhone performs poorly or shits the bed are you going to blame the chicken farmer or Apple? Who do you think is really at fault and responsible?

    I've spent a 40-year career in manufacturing. As an engineer, it is my job to design production automation and processes, monitor them, and correct any issues. Unskilled production workers simply do what they are trained, no more no less. They have a very narrow window of what they can and can not do and there are detailed specs for virtually everything. They rarely influence or decide on anything outside of these specs. If they do anything wrong the process will very quickly detect it, and it's then corrected by the quality control teams with a new process to ensure it never happens again. There was no way in hell any production worker could produce sub-quality work for any length of time undetected which would affect product going out to customers. If there were any faults in the system, and there were, it was always the responsibility of the design engineers, process engineers, quality control, management, or manufacturing engineers. Not the production workers. The unskilled production workers were considered closely monitored "machines", a part of the process, under full control at all times. They were assumed to have no skills and needed none. If any had subpar work ethics or performance, they were quickly fired and replaced. They performed very simple production steps for which they were well trained and equipped, and always under very close supervision. Automation, highly specialized tools and tooling, and process controls supplemented almost everything. This is how Chinese chicken farmers can successfully produce hundreds of millions of state of the art Apple iPhones with very few defects.

    Few if any reputable 21st-century design and production companies would ever be so goddam stupid as to risk their very livelihood, their highly valuable brand reputation, and the quality of their finished products, by ever allowing it to be in the hands of unskilled production workers. That's just insane. Anyone thinking so is simply ignorant of the facts, influenced by hate or prejudice, or delusional.

    If you feel the quality of BRP products is diminishing, look no further than corporate BRP and the constant pressure on them to produce higher performance skis at the same price year after year after year while still growing profits. And if you also think for a second that our demands for ever higher performance skis at the same prices have no effect on the end product, then you're as blind as a bat. If some do not have enough brain power or insight to understand any of this, so be it. Rag on the innocent all you want. But being ignorant or hateful does not make you right.

    You can't change the mind of haters no matter how much truth you throw at them. Prejudice is an ugly thing which we're all prone to but should strive to rise above if it's anywhere within us to be fair. I certainly don't expect everyone here to understand or agree, many of us are just hardwired to hate. But perhaps there is still hope for some fairness and truth among the rest of us.
    Last edited by pro10is; 11-10-2018 at 01:19 PM.

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