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  1. #1
    downunder123
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    Genesis I will start on two but not on all three cylinders

    While riding I noticed first the loss of power and then minutes later the ski stopped. I found that the magnet cylinder spark plug connector was off. I thought i was lucky and reconnected it but the ski still wouldnt start. When I removed the "magnet" spark plug the engine started . Swapped the spark plugs around and checked good sparks on all plugs but the engine would not start when all three sparks are in (even when the magnet spark is just in place and not connected). Once the first plug removed and few minutes later after some cranking the engine would start on two even one cylinder only...
    The compresion seem ok or at least the same on all three cylinders under my thumb.
    Petrol supply should be ok as centre and pto cylinders are fine, although noticed some petrol around the fuel lines under the fuel injector on the magnet cylinder (plastic T junctions)
    It looks to me that the problem is fuel related. It is deffinetely related with ski running on two cylinders for a short period before stopped. I am wondering if anybody had similar problems when the fuel injector was faulty.
    Thanks


  2. #2
    martincom's Avatar
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    Check the injector voltage while cranking the engine on the white/red wire. You need to do this with everything connected, so you may a needle or some other form of thin probe (I utilize a dental pick) to slip along a connector boot. I'd avoid piercing a wiring as you create a moisture penetration point that can corrode the wire open and/or create a voltage drop point. A convenient place to access the white/red wire is the software diagnostic connector near the EMM.

    You should read approximately 21 volts on the white/red wire while cranking, not running, and 45 volts when running.

    It is just a guess at this point, but I'm thinking you may have lost a magnet(s) on the flywheel and the engine does not crank fast enough to create enough voltage to activate the injectors. Removing sparkplugs allows the engine to turnover faster and, in turn, create higher voltage.

    If the voltage is low, the next step is to remove the CPS (crank position sensor) and check for debris from magnets that have dislodged.

    While I don't think this is the issue, based on your symptoms, check the fuel pressure at the Schrader valve (tire valve stem) in the fuel return line from the injectors. It should be approximately 25 psi while cranking. If it is low, pinch off the return line on the tank side of the Schrader valve. It should be approximately 30 psi. If it is, the fuel pressure regulator (FPR) has fallen off inside the fuel tank. This is a very common issue and is a certainty it will occur at some point. It is something you want to be proactive about reinforcing as particularly on the 3 cylinder engines, the resulting lean mixture will lead to catastrophic engine failure almost immediately. There is a very good thread in the "stickies" about repairing the FPR.

    Fuel seepage around the injector tees is from the fuel lines hardening due to heat and age. Leaking fuel is an invitation for fire or explosion. Tightening the crimp on the Oetiker clamps will likely do nothing to resolve the issue and replacing them with gear clamps only postpones the issue as the gear clamps will deform and distort the hose. You'll want to replace the fuel lines with a high quality marine hose and utilize Oetiker clamps.

  3. #3
    downunder123
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    OK, so I did some troubleshooting this week and the symptoms have slightly changed from the initial problems. It all started with the Magnet spark plug cable coming off the spark during ride. The ski lost some power and then within minutes stopped dead in the water.
    That day I managed to get it started on two cylinders but not on all three and successfully used the LED to read the EMM codes which returned errors for:

    -TPS being malfunctioning and above expected range (replaced few years ago with a new one, no problems since then)
    -ROM checksum
    -Alternator voltage below expected

    On the same day I cleared the EMM codes, confirmed no error codes, started the engine and checked again for codes (no errors again). Engine compression measured good around 125 psi on all cylinders.
    A week later and after various checks the ski can now Start-Idle-Stop in successive order on all three cylinders but as soon the acceleration is engaged the engine would immediately die and won't start again for few minutes. Also, I can not read the EMM codes anymore.

    Following is what I have found:

    FUEL: I don't have the fuel pressure tester and can't confirm the exact pressure but when the brown wire is grounded the fuel pump is working.
    I get about one inch above and the width of the valve itself worth of petrol stream from the Schrader valve. FPR is in its place and has not fallen off. Apart from small petrol leak around the Injector tees I never had problems with the fuel supply. Thanks for the heads up re fuel lines, I will replace the old Tempo fuel lines and use Oetiker clamps....

    ELECTRICAL: Checked spark plug leads good, one cable is not original and measuring slightly less (433 ohms) but close to spec and other two (488 ohms). Ignition coils both prim and sec measure good resistance. Tried another set of spark plugs for testing. I could't measure the exact and consistent readings for resistance on Stator windings but they all measure around 3 ohm (lowest reading) with no inter or ground connectivity. With my decent Multimeter I found difficult to measure on the 12 pin connector and felt like that I might damage the connector's pin sockets if i poke any more wires inside..
    The voltage on White/Red wire is 22V while cranking and 42V when running and I get good sparks on all plugs (when I don't accelerate and the engine is idling).
    In the situation when the ski was idling and the acceleration killed the engine, the White/Red voltage is still 22V while cranking and I get no sparks on the plugs anymore while cranking (only get a brief and weak sparks on plugs at the very first moment of cranking).

    EMM: Can't read the codes anymore. It worked fine last week at the beginning of my troubleshooting and after the accident. Then during the week LED started blinking fast with no breaks and bilge pump was turning on...Now I am getting the irregular LED blinking which varies in speed and brightness and it eventually dies. At least the bilge pump is now not turning on anymore - small win for me!!

    Sorry about the long post, but I wanted to double check before I get inside the EMM. It looks to me that the power section (EMM) is ok and the problem is in the control section. I hope it would be something obvious but the last time I've managed to read the codes the ROM checksum one is worrying me .....

    Cheers

    ▀ojan

  4. #4
    martincom's Avatar
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    Well, it appears the stator and the flywheel magnets are OK from your voltage readings. That's a plus.

    I get about one inch above and the width of the valve itself worth of petrol stream from the Schrader valve. FPR is in its place and has not fallen off.
    I'm thinking at 25 psi, it should squirt further. However, this is not a very accurate measurement for something this critical and the consequences of ignoring it. I'd encourage you to invest in a pressure gauge.

    How do you know the FPR has not fallen off? Did you actually pull the fuel canister to verify this? Your symptoms are indicative of low fuel pressure--short of the having to wait a few minutes before it will re-start.

    Also, check the screw type wiring connections at the big capacitor. Others have reported them vibrating loose and creating strange electrical problems. If they're loose, you may want to add some Loctite tot the threads, but make sure there is a tooth washer between the wire ring terminal and the capacitor screw boss to assure a good connection as the Loctite tends to acts as an insulator.

    Try unplugging the TPS and then see if you can read the LED codes. I just had an instance where a defective TPS was preventing me from being able to establish communications with the EMM utilizing Digital Wrench.

    Also, check the screw type wire connections at the big capacitor. Others have reported strange issues as a result of their being loose. If they're loose, you may want to apply Loctite to the threads. However, make sure there is a tooth washer between the ring terminal and the capacitor screw boss as the Loctite tends to act as an insulator.
    Last edited by martincom; 12-28-2016 at 09:12 PM. Reason: added big capacitor paragraph

  5. #5
    downunder123
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    Hi,

    I will look for fuel pressure gauge and confirm the fuel supply. It is one of the things that I have assumed being OK having the rag soaked with petrol when tested. Besides that, when I accelerate and the engine dies it doesn't sound that is starved of petrol, no bogging. It just cuts off.
    Yes, I did go inside the fuel tank and checked FPR ok. Learned my lesson earlier in the past..
    I don't have Digital Wrench and use the LED method where TPS is disconnected and its harness connector is shorted on red and green wires, simulating WOT. I still have my old TPS that was intermittent on higher revs and was going to try it but kinda thinking that TPS is not at fault because it is not even connected when reading the EMM codes.
    I am focused on the lack of sparks on the plugs while cranking immediately after the engine dies (after acceleration). The 22V is present on the w/r wire when cranking so the fuel injectors should fire as long as the cct is grounded back inside EMM. Possibly the petrol pump is also looking for the ground on brown wire that is not present in EMM?
    I am wondering about one thing that I didn't check and that is 300V on the ignition coils. Orange - green/purple/blue wires from EMM. The manual says not to touch it but my multimeter can measue that voltage. Is it safe to do it? That could possibly tell me more about grounding in EMM.
    What is confusing me is the fact that the problem seems to me to be on the electrical side but the symptoms appear to be related to the basic fuel-air-spark relation.

    Cheers

    ▀ojan

  6. #6
    martincom's Avatar
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    Yes, I did go inside the fuel tank and checked FPR ok
    I don't mean to beat this issue to death, but did you reinforce the FPR attachment?

    I don't have Digital Wrench and use the LED method where TPS is disconnected and its harness connector is shorted on red and green wires, simulating WOT.
    Dah! I'm bad. I have the LED tool that I fabricated as a backup to DW. I've only utilized once, as build test. I'd forgotten about disconnecting the TPS.

    I am focused on the lack of sparks on the plugs while cranking immediately after the engine dies (after acceleration).
    I agree. As this is a failure you can, somewhat, duplicate; it is the best symptom to focus upon. Have you tried bypassing the LR-503 Start/Stop module? K447 has detailed such a procedure:

    https://sites.google.com/site/polari...jected-engines

    Also, what year is your Genesis? I want to be sure I'm singing from the same sheet of music.

  7. #7
    downunder123
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    Hi, yes I have secured FPR with a pin. Bypassing LR503 and using my old TPS are the next things to check. Soon I will be able to check the EMM using DW and see what happens. The fuel pressure tester is on my way too.
    I've got Genesis 2001 Ficht model.
    Not related to my current problems but I found a hose that is connected to the one of the two vents under the seat (at the front) . One vent is connected to the fuel system and the other on my ski is routed under the engine and lifelessly terminates around the drive shaft area not connected to anything. I had a good luck in the manual and on the exploded parts diagrams but couldn't find where should be connected..

  8. #8
    martincom's Avatar
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    I've got Genesis 2001 Ficht model.
    I believe that year utilized an electrical junction box. If so, you may want to check it for signs of corrosion from water leakage, especially around the rivets that serve as interconnections. They're known to be problematic.

    Not related to my current problems but I found a hose that is connected to the one of the two vents under the seat (at the front) . One vent is connected to the fuel system and the other on my ski is routed under the engine and lifelessly terminates around the drive shaft area not connected to anything. I had a good luck in the manual and on the exploded parts diagrams but couldn't find where should be connected..
    It is the vent tube for a lead acid battery. The vent tube is connected to the rubber through-hull elbow with a plastic nipple that is known for breaking in two. So you may want to check that if you're utilizing a lead acid battery. Lead acid battery fumes are explosive, so you don't want them inside the hull.

  9. #9
    downunder123
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    Ok, good to know about the battery, mine is over 10 years old and still working . So the other end of hose just sits around the battery and is not connected to anything..
    I have successfully bypassed LR503 and started the engine ok but when I returned the wiring to normal I could not start the engine at all anymore. MFI works but does not not wake up while cranking and no sparks on the plugs at all. The 23V on w/r and 12V on red/p still present while cranking. I think there is nothing else left but EMM itself. I will get it open and check for the obvious signs of electrical burn or component failure.
    From reading the posts I can see that the repairs at DFI or Fichtemm are not always 100% the first time. It can be a bit of a hit and miss and I am not even sure if my EMM can be repaired. In addition to the extra shipping cost from (and back) to Australia I am thinking of getting a known good second hand EMM. Local dealer is assuring me that the fuel injector mapping will be fine and within 5% as long as I get the same year model EMM (same part no I suppose).

  10. #10
    martincom's Avatar
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    I have successfully bypassed LR503 and started the engine ok but when I returned the wiring to normal I could not start the engine at all anymore. MFI works but does not not wake up while cranking and no sparks on the plugs at all. The 23V on w/r and 12V on red/p still present while cranking.
    I'm assuming that you bypassed the LR503 after the "no start" and it will still not start. The fact the MFI is not waking up and the no spark could be the result of a defective CPS (crank position sensor) or debris around it from a dislodged flywheel magnet. You may want to physically check it and inspect for debris on it and through it's opening. They can be checked with an ohm meter and/or DW.

    Local dealer is assuring me that the fuel injector mapping will be fine and within 5% as long as I get the same year model EMM (same part no I suppose).
    Wow, that is a huge gamble. I presently have 7*2003/2004 Virage I and at one time had 9. The only difference between the two years is the paint color and graphic decals. I read and archive the service report from each EMM. I also create a .doc file where I record the injector S/N, the cylinder it is assigned, and the injector coefficients. I can tell you they vary widely and more than 5%. I doubt if your local dealer will back up his claim with a guarantee to replace/repair your damage engine from damage resulting from mis-matched injectors.

    The typical failure component(s) in an EMM is the electrolytic capacitors. Electrolytic capacitor failures are usually related to the initial build quality and/or age. With EMMs, I believe it is a combination of both. So acquiring a "known good EMM" that hasn't been rebuilt is pretty much an invitation to EMM problems again in the near future.

    Swapping out the EMM with a non-matching spare is OK for a short term run to verify a defective EMM. I keep a spare for that purpose and as a means to reduce down time if an EMM should require repair. I'm assuming from your posts that you have or will have DW. DW has an EMM replacement utility. If you can read your existing EMM, it will read the injector info and any engine specific data into the PC RAM. You then install the replacement EMM and write that info to it. Now the replacement EMM is matched to the injectors.

    I've never verified this, but I believe 2-cylinder EMMs are different than 3-cylinder EMMs. So you may want to keep this in mind or verify it before purchasing a another EMM.

    I will get it open and check for the obvious signs of electrical burn or component failure.
    The circuit boards with an EMM are encased in potting compound. So you won't see much when removing the covers. They are also mounted solder side to the covers. So to actually view the larger components, you have to extract the boards. I did this once. It is a very time consuming process (over a day) and you have to be extremely careful not to flex the board(s) while attempting to extract them. The boards have a number of surface mount components whose end terminations will crack with flexing. This will either create another failure that cannot be detected by physical inspection or, worse yet, be intermittent. Based on the fast turnaround times I've had with EMM repairs, they definitely have a process to quickly and safely remove the potting.

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