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  1. #1

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    Weber turbo engine on MSX 110/150, Remove oil separator/cyclone?

    It's possible to remove the cyclone from tank oil on MSX 110/150 and use a oil breather filter?

    The purpose is to avoid the suction of oil into the air intake and protection of the map sensors.
    Last edited by K447; 04-21-2015 at 12:28 PM. Reason: thread title


  2. #2
    ripcuda's Avatar
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    Hello,
    Do you have the stock metal round oil tank? With the oil separator/cyclone mounted to the side of it?

    If so, here is what I would do. Leave the separator on. If your separator has a small hole in it (faces upwards... some do not have this hole), put a piece of tape over it so no water can get in the hole. Next, remove the long hose that goes from the separator all the way around the oil tank, over the exhaust manifold to the airbox. Just remove this entire hose. Cap off the airbox where the hose connected (or tape). On the separator where that hose connected, run a smaller length of hose to an oil catch can with a breather on it. This will act as a rollover tank and should catch the oil and separate the vapors. You can buy a nice oil catch can or even use a simple bottle with a hole in the side to put the hose and fill it with steel wool to trap the oil vapors... and put a filter on top. I've zip-tied one like this to my big fat exhaust loop hose so it was near the separator.

    With that recirc emissions vapor hose removed, you can no longer ingest oil into the intake, through the turbo and into the intake tract (where it will ruin the MAP sensors).

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Cheers!

  3. #3

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    Great ripcuda, this is exactly what I wanted to do!!

  4. #4

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    Do you think itís necessary to have a sealed catch can setup/no vent with an oil line from the ďoutĒ on catch can plumbed back to the original spot on the air box? That would create vacuum and draw the oil vapors off the top of the cyclone. I really donít know. Iím just asking. I just bought one of these skis from original owner and itís super clean. Had fouled MAP
    sensors so bought a catch can and new MAPS.

  5. #5
    ripcuda's Avatar
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    Necessary? No. I've been running my vented catch cans (not plumbed back to "airbox") for years without issues. I suppose if I rolled my ski (have not)... some catch can contents could drip out... but I'm not too worried.

    Can you use a good catch can and re-plumb it back to the "airbox" to suck the vapors? Sure. The updated oil tank (all plastic) does just that and works fine.

    To me, the worry is if the catch can can handle a significant quantity of oil froth/gunk/milkshake... and NOT let any get sucked back into the "airbox". This most likely would happen if water (or coolant) got into the oil and created a gunky milkshake... the tank would spew that into the oil separator... which couldn't handle a significant volume... before it just got sucked out. In my vented catch can... it can spew all that gunk into the can... but it will never get back to the "airbox" and sucked into the intake tract (intercooler, hardpipe, intake manifold).

    Just my $0.02.
    Cheers!

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  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by ripcuda View Post
    Necessary? No. I've been running my vented catch cans (not plumbed back to "airbox") for years without issues. I suppose if I rolled my ski (have not)... some catch can contents could drip out... but I'm not too worried.

    Can you use a good catch can and re-plumb it back to the "airbox" to suck the vapors? Sure. The updated oil tank (all plastic) does just that and works fine.

    To me, the worry is if the catch can can handle a significant quantity of oil froth/gunk/milkshake... and NOT let any get sucked back into the "airbox". This most likely would happen if water (or coolant) got into the oil and created a gunky milkshake... the tank would spew that into the oil separator... which couldn't handle a significant volume... before it just got sucked out. In my vented catch can... it can spew all that gunk into the can... but it will never get back to the "airbox" and sucked into the intake tract (intercooler, hardpipe, intake manifold).

    Just my $0.02.
    Cheers!
    Thank you for the detailed reply! I just now saw it as I must not have email notifications enabled. I installed the catch can setup last night just before my last post. I got to thinking after the install that the breather system may need the vacuum from the airbox to make the breather system/cyclone venturi work correctly? I did route the catch can real low and just above the metal exhaust muffler with as much negative pitch as possible on the hose down to the catch can inlet. I just picked this ski up last week from an old co workers dad who bought it new and kept it at their lake house. Its super clean with 70hrs. I thought the ski worked as it should but when I went to the lake after buying it, I immediately found that is surged/chugged at idle and didn't have the best performance. RPM's were 5900-6000 max and boost gauge never hit more than 3/4. Top speed was an indicated 41 tops. I then started researching and found all the info about fouled MAP sensors etc. Pulled both MAP sensors and they did have a film on them. A few moisture droplets in the throttle body but nothing major. Oil is clear on stick except for the very top of oil canister where the dipstick screws on but I feel like that would be normal? My plan was to replace both MAP sensors, the turbo wastegate solenoid with the Pierburg one people use, install a catch can and then head back to the water. I also pulled the spark plugs and they were very black and sooty like its running rich. They looked good as far as condition but I still put new plugs in it. Compression was 122 and 130. Not sure if thats normal? Coolant was also a touch low in reservoir it seemed like. Not sure what all I might have going on here.
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  8. #7
    ripcuda's Avatar
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    Very clean MSX 110 there!

    I like your catch-can solution. Not sure if the expanding foam will hold it long-term in place... the waterbox (aka muffler) does get hot... but not too hot to touch... but the jarring of hopping waves might rattle it loose. Can always ziptie it to the big looping hose.

    Good that your oil on the dipstick is clean. That frothy gunk atop the oil tank is normal, it's just condensation... it'll burn off after a good run.

    If you have the old,original style turbo wastegate solenoid (mounts to front-side of turbo)... then replacing with newer (better) version that mounts to valve cover is a good idea.

    A healthy 110 should reach ~ 7200 rpms / 52 mph. You are down on power.

    Do you have fresh fuel? (Premium required for turbo engine)

    I'd put in new spark plugs... Champion (3068 ) RC7PYCB.

    Your uneven compression is suspect. These Weber engines used in the MSX's were the first of their line, Nikasil plated cylinders for Weber Motors... and sadly, the plating process wasn't perfected yet and MANY of these engines develop Nikasil plating failure (it flakes off cylinders... causing drop in compression). Do you have a boroscope you and inspect the cylinder with?

    Have you done an oil change? Pulling apart the oil filter and looking for glitter is a good way to spot Nikasil plating failure.

    Cheers!
    Last edited by K447; 07-28-2021 at 11:55 AM.

  9. #8

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    Thank you so much again Ripcuda. You are giving me pearls here! Not happy to hear about the common plating failure. That is the first I have heard of that but I am still quickly learning on these skis. I hope that is not part of my problem. Isn't a 10% differential between cylinders allowed? Or is it 5%. Anyway, I ran comp test 3 times on both cylinders with both plugs out and throttle held wide open. 121/122 psi on front, 130 psi on rear. Could be worse I suppose.

    I definitely have fresh fuel. I filled up with 91 octane/no ethanol before heading to the lake and the tank was almost empty. I also added a full bottle of Berrymans B-12 Chemtool fuel system cleaner. Its funny because even though the ski has a drivability issue, I could still feel it get "better" after 15 minutes of running fresh fuel and injector cleaner through it. Its still chugging/surging at idle and down on power. I do think I may have found a big problem, I received the new turbo wastegate solenoid today. By putting my mouth on both and blowing through both, it seems as though my original one is stuck open and the new one is in the normally closed position? This would certainly cause a problem if so.

    New Champion spark plugs are in. Also found fuel lines were weeping where they clamp to the quick connects so cut those back and re clamped.

    Excited to get back to the lake with the new sensors/solenoid and see what its like!

  10. #9

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    I forgot to mention that the catch can is just sitting on a yellow micro fiber rag. But it does indeed totally look like spray foam! I have it zip-tied to the big hose.

    Do you by chance have any pictures of hose routing with the Pierberg turbo solenoid? Figured the two black nipples were for hoses and metal nipple was vent but saw 1 unclear pic that is somewhat contradicting that.

    Thanks again!

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbern58 View Post
    I forgot to mention that the catch can is just sitting on a yellow micro fiber rag. But it does indeed totally look like spray foam! I have it zip-tied to the big hose.

    Do you by chance have any pictures of hose routing with the Pierberg turbo solenoid? Figured the two black nipples were for hoses and metal nipple was vent but saw 1 unclear pic that is somewhat contradicting that.

    Thanks again!

    Never mind! Did some more digging and found this. Posting document for anyone else reading through.
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